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  • Originally posted by The Celt View Post
    Yes and No...


    Jesus always said that his followers should continue to follow Judaism, did he not?
    At no place in the NT does Jesus tell his followers to adhere to Judaism forever.

    At no point did he proclaim himself to be the founder of a new religion
    Not in those words, but by his very words, his commands themselves led followers in a new direction, with jesus himself as the "capstone"of their faith, as Jesus himself says "On this rock you will build my church" when speaking to Peter. Jesus was not referring to Peter, but of himself. Without posting an exhaustive list of scripture in order to reference this point, it was clea that Jesus intended for his followers to not only start a new church, but that Jesus himself would be the very focus of this church and he then goes onto expand the degree to which he expected his followers to spread this new religion, by commisioning them to "Preach this gospel to the very ends of the earth" before being taken up to heaven. Jesus leaves no doubt as to what his intentions were concerning his mission and pupose and what he intended his followers to do after he left them. To this day....it it still occuring.

    , all the reforms he wished to make were in the context of the system in place.
    The only "system" which was to be left in place was the moral system, or code of conduct, which had been previously handed down and which Jesus clarified and confirmed through his teaching and example here on Earth, when Jesus himself stated "Not one jot or tittle shall in no wise by removed from the law, until all be fullfilled".

    A last Supper may have taken place, but with much different meaning than what we have before us today.
    The bible makes clear the intention and meaning of the lastsupper, as Jesus himself stated it was to be done in "rememberance" of him and what he did. The Bible does not give any further intruction or place any additional meaning behind the last supper. Anything done today which goes beyond that goes beyond the Bible itself.

    Thus by creating a new religion with jesus as the basis and focus of that religion, current christians not only go against his teachings and wishes, but are also breaking at least two of the commandments...
    When scripture is read and understood within it's proper context, which is fairly simple to do concerning Jesus's intentions regarding his "church" (which we dubbed "christianity") we get a clear understanding that this is eactly what Jesus intended to be done, as he says so both directly and indirectly throughout the entire NT. In fact, Jesus's only purpose in empowering his followers was to build a "new" church and spread the gospel to the ends of the Earth. He states so very clearly.
    Last edited by Mike Arnold; November 26th, 2010, 05:51 AM.

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    • Originally posted by KurtyJ99 View Post
      Well don't turn your back on him now.

      I can't imagine loosing a child, but you should know as a man of faith that it was not god's will for that to happen.

      Like I said...what choices seem logical isn't always what's chosen.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mfcruncher View Post
        Interesting take. While I could argue it, I abstain based on the fact that you inspire me to think about your interpretation. I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but simply appreciating what you bring to the table here. I'm left wondering if we're possibly not on the same page here.
        Because the jews of Judaism rejected Jesus as the messiah...there was no choice, but to start a new "church".

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        • Originally posted by Mike Arnold View Post
          Because the jews of Judaism rejected Jesus as the messiah...there was no choice, but to start a new "church".
          thanks mike. I was sitting on two glasses of wine when I wrote that.
          "I'm tired of always being right. It gives me an unfair advantage when I debate Alemannic German speaking trolls."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mike Arnold View Post
            When scripture is read and understood within it's proper context, which is fairly simple to do concerning Jesus's intentions regarding his "church" (which we dubbed "christianity") we get a clear understanding that this is eactly what Jesus intended to be done, as he says so both directly and indirectly throughout the entire NT. In fact, Jesus's only purpose in empowering his followers was to build a "new" church and spread the gospel to the ends of the Earth. He states so very clearly.
            There are many references to Christ introducing Himself as the Messiah. For instance, God told Moses to tell Israel that "I am" sent him. When soldiers came to take Jesus, they asked if He was Jesus and Jesus said "I am". It says the sodiers immediately fell to the ground as if something had exploded. There's a bunch of stuff like that.
            "I'm tired of always being right. It gives me an unfair advantage when I debate Alemannic German speaking trolls."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mfcruncher View Post
              What is painfully obvious is that nothing here represents anything you believe. It's what you want to believe. That being said, if you would actually care to discuss any one or two things, bold them and I will address. Be sure to let Celt edit them first so I can make head or tails of it.
              What I wrote, what is reality, and what I believe are three different things. Reality to those trapped within it's frame is fickle and almost impossible to determine, there are very few constant laws in life. What I wrote is the closest thing I can determine to be the historical truth of Christianity. And what I believe is if God exists then it doesn't particularly care about every day life and thus I don't recognize it and it doesn't recognize me.
              Can't spell strength without tren.

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              • Btw if I wanted to be a Christian then I would bring back the Agnostics...
                Can't spell strength without tren.

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                • Originally posted by Corrupt Nexus View Post
                  What I wrote, what is reality, and what I believe are three different things. Reality to those trapped within it's frame is fickle and almost impossible to determine, there are very few constant laws in life. What I wrote is the closest thing I can determine to be the historical truth of Christianity. And what I believe is if God exists then it doesn't particularly care about every day life and thus I don't recognize it and it doesn't recognize me.
                  This is what I told you. What you believe about Christ as interpreted by what you wrote has led to a fickle opinion about reality. I find you trapped and lacking passion. This is why I said you do not have a strong belief about what you wrote.

                  I wouldn't agree that God doesn't care about you. The imputation speaks of a different nature.
                  "I'm tired of always being right. It gives me an unfair advantage when I debate Alemannic German speaking trolls."

                  Comment


                  • "Take away Easter, and Karl Marx was probably right to accuse Christianity of ignoring problems of the material world. Take it away and Freud was probably right to say Christianity is wish-fulfillment. Take it away and Nietzshe probably was right to say it was for wimps."



                    N.T. Wright, For All God's Worth: True Worship and the calling of the church(Erdmans, 1997), pp 65-66
                    "I'm tired of always being right. It gives me an unfair advantage when I debate Alemannic German speaking trolls."

                    Comment


                    • My beliefs on Christianity came from the 17 years of my life I spent within the Church, and how at the end of the day I was filled with anger that the world I lived in wasn't protected by some omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being. I was tired of looking for signs that he or she existed and how no matter how hard I believed and prayed it didn't make a difference; when I stopped caring, stopped going to church, and started living life by my own definition of morality and belief system things felt much more fulfilling and tranquil. When I gave up the game of religion, I felt like I had accomplished something. I have dirtied my hands and given more back to my community and maybe humanity that any supposed Christian I know. I've seen church groups come and go at homeless shelters, always afraid to do the hard work; however, I, along with several other nontheistics, are their every week to help in anyway we can. I have seen Christian's drive down the road and look at a homeless person sitting in the sweltering heat and comment on how sad it was; I got off my ass and bought them a gallon of water, bread or granola bars, and gave them directions to the closest shelter, offering anything I could to get them there. I gave these people this aid out of my genuine effort to change the world, Christian's always conditionally help and then ramble on about their God and what he has done. From what I have seen Christians are perfectly content on sitting on their comfortable pews talking about how their God has done these great things, and may take a weekend or so do small amounts of work to make themselves feel better. I was a Chemistry and Calculus instructor at a private Christian school for 2 years and I know first hand how out of touch with reality both the student and their parents actually are. It made me so angry to hear a student tell me they didn't want to talk to a person because they looked poor or smelled bad; or to have parent tell me that it really wasn't their job to help these people, we came and cleaned the windows and that's all we could really do. When it really comes down to it most Christian's want to think their God will take care of the righteous, and if something bad happens to someone it must because of their sin against God. Apparently it's just a bit too hard to understand that bad things happen to good people, and it happens quite often. Poverty can't distinguish between creed, race, or sexual orientation so why should we, the very people who are supposed to help those than can be helped, care what their answer to those three statuses are?
                      Can't spell strength without tren.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Corrupt Nexus View Post
                        My beliefs on Christianity came from the 17 years of my life I spent within the Church, and how at the end of the day I was filled with anger that the world I lived in wasn't protected by some omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being. I was tired of looking for signs that he or she existed and how no matter how hard I believed and prayed it didn't make a difference; when I stopped caring, stopped going to church, and started living life by my own definition of morality and belief system things felt much more fulfilling and tranquil. When I gave up the game of religion, I felt like I had accomplished something. I have dirtied my hands and given more back to my community and maybe humanity that any supposed Christian I know. I've seen church groups come and go at homeless shelters, always afraid to do the hard work; however, I, along with several other nontheistics, are their every week to help in anyway we can. I have seen Christian's drive down the road and look at a homeless person sitting in the sweltering heat and comment on how sad it was; I got off my ass and bought them a gallon of water, bread or granola bars, and gave them directions to the closest shelter, offering anything I could to get them there. I gave these people this aid out of my genuine effort to change the world, Christian's always conditionally help and then ramble on about their God and what he has done. From what I have seen Christians are perfectly content on sitting on their comfortable pews talking about how their God has done these great things, and may take a weekend or so do small amounts of work to make themselves feel better. I was a Chemistry and Calculus instructor at a private Christian school for 2 years and I know first hand how out of touch with reality both the student and their parents actually are. It made me so angry to hear a student tell me they didn't want to talk to a person because they looked poor or smelled bad; or to have parent tell me that it really wasn't their job to help these people, we came and cleaned the windows and that's all we could really do. When it really comes down to it most Christian's want to think their God will take care of the righteous, and if something bad happens to someone it must because of their sin against God. Apparently it's just a bit too hard to understand that bad things happen to good people, and it happens quite often. Poverty can't distinguish between creed, race, or sexual orientation so why should we, the very people who are supposed to help those than can be helped, care what their answer to those three statuses are?
                        While I truly sympathize with your feelings and no doubt there are hypocrites who clothe themselves in the name of Christianity...I believe and know you are way off base with true GENUINE, authentic Christians helping out the poor and others in need. I see it all the time. Unfortunately there are lukeworm churches out there that just want to get their felt needs tickled..have a little church and go home until next Sunday. I know and agree with you that there many like that.

                        But myself a genuine Protestant Christian who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God do do for others as well as my church and many others. God does wonderful things..but I say this to you with soberness in my spirit. God owes us NOTHING. This is His universe and He predestines everything that comes to pass. One last mistake on your part. What you do might be a nice thing. There should be more Christians out there showing what Jesus did and commanded us to do. But if one is NOT a Christian. I am not talking religious...that is something totally different from Christianity...but if one is NOT one...then the Bible says that all your good deeds are filthy rags. So I am just saying that make sure you are a Christian first before you say that you are doing good.

                        Because God says you are not if you are not His. God sees the heart..man sees the outside only...so there is other motivation in it for the unsaved person. God knows this. I am just telling you the truth of the Bible. Doesn't matter what any man says. And if the Bible says we are dead in trespasses and sin....a spirtually dead man..or non-Christian can do nothing just like a dead man cannot come to life without a supernatural resurrection.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mfcruncher View Post
                          There are many references to Christ introducing Himself as the Messiah. For instance, God told Moses to tell Israel that "I am" sent him. When soldiers came to take Jesus, they asked if He was Jesus and Jesus said "I am". It says the sodiers immediately fell to the ground as if something had exploded. There's a bunch of stuff like that.
                          Actually..I don't know about any exploding..the soldiers wanted to kill him when he said that. Because Jesus said that before Moses was..."I am".

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by cledo5 View Post
                            I think Forman is a big outrageous, but I stick with Forman on the fact that one can be taken out of the book of life after accepting Jesus. Saying this is not true is like saying someone can accept Jesus, then become a serial murder/rapist, moreover denying the existance of Christ and let's add that he prosecute Christians and rape little boys; if you are willing to tell me that this person will still be in the book of life because he was once saved, then be my guess. It is also stated in the bible, I just do not know it off the top of my head. I'm with Forman on this one.
                            While I understand what you are saying and agree with you to a point. Christians still sin after they are saved...if we say we do not the Bible says we are liars and the truth is not in us. But if one claims to be a Christian...but continues on sinning...that person was not saved in the first place. They did not have what theologians call true saving faith. Hebrews chapter 6 talks a little about this.

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                            • Originally posted by cledo5 View Post
                              As far as steroid and Christianity, The only thing I will say about this is that there is a possibility that steroid can mess you up if you do not know what you're doing and with the scripture against the abuse of alcohol, it shows that God wants us to be aware of how we treat our bodies; so if you will do steroid, make sure you do it under a supervision of a specialist, or make sure you are 100% sure of what you're doing. With the right practices, steroid is great for your body so have at it.
                              I agree with most of your post. But I as a Christian would never take them. Everyone will say that it is an even playing field. Yes..everyone is equally cheating. It is against the law without a prescription except for medicinal uses...and we all know that that is not what AAS,GH, and such are used for by professional,national level and local athletes. God wants us to obey the law of the land. I believe ...if I am not mistaken about only medicinal uses. That goes back to the 1990 Steroid Control Act and refined in 2004 to include prohormones. There is a thing called the conscience that God has placed in everyone of us that tells us what is right and wrong. No..it does not say anything about AAS in the Bible because they didn't exist then.

                              But there is possible health porblems when used or abused...and God says the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Though only a Christian really has the Holy Spirit indwelling them..but that does not let unbelievers off the hook. Just my opinion.

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                              • Originally posted by Charles Benner View Post
                                I agree with most of your post. But I as a Christian would never take them. Everyone will say that it is an even playing field. Yes..everyone is equally cheating. It is against the law without a prescription except for medicinal uses...and we all know that that is not what AAS,GH, and such are used for by professional,national level and local athletes. God wants us to obey the law of the land. I believe ...if I am not mistaken about only medicinal uses. That goes back to the 1990 Steroid Control Act and refined in 2004 to include prohormones. There is a thing called the conscience that God has placed in everyone of us that tells us what is right and wrong. No..it does not say anything about AAS in the Bible because they didn't exist then.

                                But there is possible health porblems when used or abused...and God says the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Though only a Christian really has the Holy Spirit indwelling them..but that does not let unbelievers off the hook. Just my opinion.
                                Charles, you are sadly a victim of Media I'm sorry.

                                There is only commercial advertising "T" referring to low testosterone levels in men, and it is the only one that list no side effects.

                                If you believe you should share the same views as the government in relation to any drug use, you are seriously sad and ignorant.

                                You have a higher chance of winning the lottery, then experiencing anything more then elevated blood pressure and acne from steroid use. A far cry from the death that many receive from nsaids and other "legal" governmental drugs.

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