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Thread: Is steroid use against Christian principals??

  1. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travel_Dude View Post
    This is false. You can commit many sins without feeling bad about it. Sin is objective, not subjective. The act itself is the sin.
    ....and in this case, there is no biblical justification to call all steroid use "sin", as MF Cruncher has shown earlier in this thread.

  2. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedForemanRules View Post
    I'm just busting balls too.. I'm not being serious. I don't care what you do with your body.

    @MF: Yes. According to your Bible, indulging in sun bathing or using sun tan lotion to speed up the tanning process is against God's initial will.
    LOL...I will not even get into "why" using tanning lotion does NOT have to be sinful. These are matters of the conscience and personal conviction, which depend wholly on the motives behind the actions. Steroid use, when it is not harming the body and is not breaking any laws...falls into this category.

    He wants you to have little choice for yourself, and for you to listen to what He wants for you.
    Incorrect. God wants us to make all our own choices unless he directly tells us otherwise. God simply wants us to follow his moral laws, while living life under their direction.


    I doubt God wants you to have 21 inch arms through drug usage.. Especially when there is ambiguous scripture to back that up.
    There is ZERO scripture which is able to definiteively back it up....jus as much as their is no scripture to back up the oftenpressed belief that all alcohol use is sinful. Not everything is as black and white as you think....only moral law is black and white.

    You can still be a Christian and use drugs. I am not denying that... But is that what your God wants you to do? Or do you just pick and choose what God wants for you?
    AAS use which does not break the law or harm the body is only unlawfull depening on motive. That is a matter which is unique for everyone.

  3. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedForemanRules View Post
    You can definitely still call yourself a Christian and sin. The Bible says that you are a born sinner.

    But do you believe that when you are saved, you are always saved?
    As long as you stay saved. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the "seal of our salvation"numeroustimes and sirely, it is. When a supposed chritian is"bornagain", they recieve the HolySpirit, which is their sign and seal. When a supposed chritsian dies, if he still possess the Holy Spirit, he is saved....period. There is no losing your salvation under ANY circumstances as long as we maintain that seal....the seal of our salvation. It is VERY hard to push the Holy spirit away....much more difficult than one might think, as to do so would mean a loss of salvation, which accordingto theBible, is grave indeed. It requires a deliberate and forceful effort to grieve the Holy Spirirt away. It must be a willfull choice on the part of the christian...a blatant rejection of their creator and salvation,as the Bible says, "All sins will be forgiven amongmen, except he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit".

    To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is the rejection of Christ....as there is no sin that one might commit which can eternally seperate man from God, other than to reject his salvation. If one were to willfully and intentionally seperate himself from the seal of his salvation, the Holy Spirit, such a man will no longer have any conviction nor care for his choice, nor will his conscience be bothered, as he will have been removed from the influence of the Holy Spirit, who leads christians in conviction and truth. Such a man's spirit no longer bears witness to his creator in spirit or mind. Such a man is eternally lost, as scripture says, to paraphrase "No one who has seen God and who turns his back on him, can be brought back again".

    It is for this reason that all satanic organizations will not accept anyone into their group who has been Born again, even if he desires it so, as he posseses the Holy Spirit. If such a man desires to turn his back on God and align himself with Satan, that man must reject his salvation through the rejection of the Holy Spirit first, which has been placed inside him. Only then will such a man be accepted into their group, if he meets their other criteria for acceptance.

    Any man who still possesses the Holy Spirit at death, no matter how small it's voice has grown, even if undiscernable, cannot be rejected, for when God sees a man who has recieved the Holy Spirit, the seal of his salvation, God no longer sees that man, but instead sees Jesus Christ. Any man under the blood of the Christ will never be lost, regardless of sin or disobedience. Any christian who has the Holy Spirit is a saved man, regardless of his sin....as scripture says "He who breaks even the least of these comandments (sins) and teaches others to do likewise, will be called least in the kingdom of God". The Bible is quite clear that man can and will indeed sin until the end, as we all will, with some even teaching others that they should do likewise. Still, their punishment is a lower status in heaven...not hell.

    Do you believe that just because you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the salvation of mankind, that now you can do things the Bible says not to do and still be accepted into your Heaven?
    Yes....according to scripture, although there is a point where if one is drawn far enough away from God through perpetual sin, he could potentially end up grieving away the Holy Spirit by his own deiberate will. There is no measuring stick by which christians are judged, as according to the Bible, christians have escaped judgment. Salvation is not a matter of works, but of choice....choice to accept the free gift of salvation. Salvation is the result is faith+ nothing....not faith + works...or faith + lack of sin. There is no "judgment day" for christians, in which God lines them up and weighs out their good deeds and sins and takes those who are good enough to heaven and those who don't cut it offf to hell. No! Everyone of them is saved. To a christian, God is our father and has taken on that role. He does not deal with us as enemies which need to be crushed for a single area of disobidience. The penalty for being a stubborn asshole and refusing to listen to one of Gods commands is no different than how a loving parent responds their to children....they are not rejected....but rather disciplined out of love like "children".

    If you do believe that, then you believe against Christian principles.
    Not at all...it is you who do not have a clear understanding of salvation and God's relationship with man once he becomes our father...and how that relationship differs from those who are not his children.

    Once you are saved, you are supposed to hold yourself to a higher standard.
    True....out of love and a will to please God...not out of fear.

    The definition of a Christian is one who lives his life as Jesus Christ would. Right?
    NO...it's not.

    The definition of a christian is one who has accepted Jesus christ and recieved the Holy spirit asthe seal of his salvation. How he conducts himself afterwards is a matter of spiritual growth andhowmuch the flesh is in controlproportion to the spirit. This varries widely from person to person....as we well know.

    By that definition, once you are saved you should put aside these drugs in order to live your life more purely.
    Already addressed this in another post.

    Would Jesus take these drugs you are taking?
    Would Jesus do many of the things you do? No, yet you do them all the time anyway. Are you lost because of it?

    Can you feel 100% secure in the fact that you will go to Heaven, even though you are taking drugs that make your body work in an unnatural way (which is a sin)?
    Yes.....just as much as the christian who is a social drinker is going to heaven.

    If your answer is "yes", then good luck.
    If your answer is no....miserable you will be and fearful of hell you will live due to your sin-filled life, which you will always have with you.

  4. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedForemanRules View Post
    I've heard this before. It's kind of like saying, "I don't need to follow exactly what God says because of his grace."
    Yet there is no biblical proof that all performance enhancing steroid use is wrong, so it kind of defeats your point.

    Yet he Flooded the Earth because we weren't listening to Him. He even destroyed Sadam and Gomorrah because we weren't listening to Him.

    He has proven time and time again in the Bible that if we don't follow his will, then we're fucked.
    Then according to your black and white, all or nothing interpretation, you are fucked right now for using vulgar language. Good luck!

    You're just justifying yourself with the fact that God might have a little bit of grace and mercy.
    You don't understand God's relationship with those have become his children and the difference in how he deals with those who are his children and those who are not his children, such as the people of Sodom and Gommorrah, of whom none were his children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedForemanRules View Post
    This is why your religion is so weird to me.
    You don't listen to God... You listen to some guys, like Paul.. You seek guidance from a person who makes good points, but isn't 100% correct with everything he says.. Like his view of marriage.


    1. God made us the way we are, to function the way we do - naturally, not artificially. - ( Psalm 139 )
    2. God did make everybody different, for different reasons, to do different things... But according to Psalm, God did not create us to take drugs like AAS. How am I taking that out of context? How am I misinterpreting that?

    This could be a better discussion if it had to do with weed.. Beacuse weed is naturally occurring.. Like alcohol. But AAS is not in the same category as a naturally occurring herb or a fermented fruit. AAS are synthetic drugs to make your body operate in a way you want it to. God did not create AAS like he created herbs or alcohol.

    This particualr subject seems very, very black and white to me.
    Reallly....is not testosterone far more natural to the body than weed or alcohol.

  6. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedForemanRules View Post
    Not bingo... I just answered MF's question and am awaiting a response from him.. I would welcome you to respond to Post #37, #38, and #40 in this thread. I'm not trying to discredit your beliefs, I just want to know why you want to justify drug abuse as a Christian.
    Who says all steroid use has to be drug abuse. Define "drug abuse" please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corrupt Nexus View Post
    Actually the ten commandments are kind of plagiarized, it seems funny that "God" would have given them these commandments right after their "Exodus" or removal from Egypt. The reason is that the Egyptians has 42 commandments known as "Ma'at Commandments/Laws" the 10 commandments of the Jews are part of the 42 just dumbed down and simplified.
    Not at all. The egyptian religion and morality is light years away from christianity.

    It is inane to believe that only 10 rules could dictate morality
    It doesn't. There is much more to christian morality than just the 10 commandments. It's usually those who know very little about christianity that make these comments.

    , but leave it to Christian's to let an religious text dictate to them what is and isn't right. It's okay though, slowly and surely you ignorant bastards are breeding yourselves out. Just remember it was the scientist, the very truth of nature your people tried to repress
    No, catholocism and certain denominations tried to repress specific kinds of science....NOT the Bible, which IS christianity itself. Everything you state was done by men...not what actual christinaity dictates.

    , that has given you antibiotics, vaccines, and the ability to prolong death. Yet you superstitious bastards
    Few christians are superstitous, if your using the word correctly.....no more so than anyone else.

    continue to refuse to use birth control and keep producing more and more religious zealots.
    I know VERY few christians who refuse to use brith control. In fact, I know NONE and I have met 1000's. Try again.

    Eventually nature will intervene, as it always does, and dwindle your population back down. I say yours, because those of us who are intelligent and embrace logic and reason and reject blind faith and optimism are the ones who will survive. Human life isn't some kind of inalienable right, survival of the fittest my friend, and unfortunately fitness isn't referring to physical strength.
    Inferring that those who believe in a God are "unfit" is absurd...as many of the world's greatest men have held such beliefs. It has been this way from the beginning of history and wil lcontinue to be this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedForemanRules View Post
    LOL I did...

    We will definitely have to agree to disagree here... We just see things in a different light.

    And... Weed is not a hallucinogen, or a psychedelic.. It changes no perception, it only enhances perception. Like caffeine.
    Marijauana...or should I say THC, most definitely can change perception athigh enough doses. It is and always has been considered a psychdelic in the field of medicine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeForemanRules View Post
    1 out of 100,000 Christians know the Bible, that being said the Bible clearly states breaking the law is a sin.

    All people who use illegal drugs shit on the teachings of Jesus Christ.
    X2. I was surprised that no one mentioned this aside from myself. I wouldn't go quite that high on the 1 in 100,000 estimate, but I get your point and your right...a very small percentage of those who call themselves christians actually do know the bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisJamesW-III View Post
    Christians are fans of loopholes and are smarter than their god.........they get around lent and no meat by classing all animals who spend time in water as fish, regardless, e.g. Capybara etc.
    Lent is NOT a christian teaching anyway...it has nothing to do with christianity in any sense, but only catholocism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedForemanRules View Post
    So nothing that the Bible says matters since everybody has different interpretations on scripture.
    Notatall....99% of what the Bible says is mportant is crystal clear....it is the remaining 1% of stuff people argue over and this is one of those things, as the Bible is only 1 book and cannot talk at length about everything.

    Glad you see the light.
    ^^^^

    Lack of understanding as to why those 2 men disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Does the Bible specifically say which parts are open to interpretation? If not then you are making assumptions and other parts that maybe you don't think are open to interpretations seem that way to other people.
    Like I said in a previous post, 99% of what the bible says is important is crystal clear and every denomination agrees on it.....the remaining 1% is what everyone always argues about because there just isn't enough pages in the Bible to clarify everythng and somethings are a little more complicated, but none of that shit matters too much....and it doesn't matter at all when it comes to biblical salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Celt View Post
    You are discussing the NT correct? Because in the OT YHWH=#1...


    Just Sayin....

    In the OT God's son had not yet been fully revealed...only in part. In the NT, Yaweh is STILL #1, with Christ as his subordinate, but you already know this, Celt....you just like to argue with christians...LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Arnold View Post
    Lent is NOT a christian teaching anyway...it has nothing to do with christianity in any sense, but only catholocism.
    Current christianity owes its existence to Roman Catholicism.........it was taken from obscure fringe cult 2000 years ago to its current by them for power and political reasons.
    There is nothing unique in dismissing it whilst claiming your upstart brand of US christianity is the correct one.

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    Morality is independent from religion. Also to say that the Ten Commandments are Christian is half true seeing as they originated in the Tanakh. How can you deny that the Ma'at was the original and more vast predecessor to the 10 commandments? (http://xenophilius.wordpress.com/200...-commandments/)

    The ten commandments are straight from this list. Also saying that Christianity doesn't share anything with Egyptian religions, or in fact any other religion is inane. Christianity is far from original and has drawn it's roots from many more ancient religions. Such as theophagy, or the consumption of the flesh of a fertility god traced back to a neolithic fertility rite surrounding a god who must die in order to rise again, so that it may save it's followers. Hmm, sounds like communion and the idea of sacrifice in order to save.

    Orphic traditions placed a major influence on the idea that salvation in the afterlife. In Orphic traditions Dionysus is killed by his own people in because of his teachings and is resurrected.

    Orphism and Hermetcism played major roles in influencing Platonist mysticism which in turn influenced early Christians. Even more interesting is according to Brod und Wein and Der Enzige wine is a major thematic reference in both Dionysus's and Jesus's stories. Referencing to the fact that the transformation of water to wine at the Marriage of Cana story was intended to show that Jesus was stronger than Dionysus.

    Transubstantiation is present in both Christianity and Orpism. Dionysus approaches King Pentheus on charges of claiming divinity, Jesus approaches Pontius Pilate on charges of claiming divinity. Osiris from Egyptian mythology and Jesus are essentially the same person. Osiris was of divine origin, he suffered death and mutilation at the hands of the power of evil, then after a great struggle with these powers rose again, and became henceforth the king of the underworld and the judge of the dead, because he had conquered death so that the righteous could conquer death. The Osirian cycle dies on the 17th of the month of Athyr, the month between October 28th and November 26th. and is revived on the 19th much like the 3 day resurrection of Christ.

    When Osiris dies his death is mourned and on the third day is celebrated, on par with the resurrection story of Christ. St. Pauls comparison of bodily resurrection with a seed being planted and corn growing (1 Cor 15:35-38) is based on the Ancient Egyptian concepts in which germinating seeds in Osiris beds represent resurrection. Early Christian's followed many of the same systems as the Osirian's which included the mummification of corpses that ended with the arrival of Islam.

    The relationship between Isis and Horus is identical to the relationship between "The Virgin" Mary and Jesus. Shed was a Egyptian deity referred to as the "savior". Shed is identified with Horus and represents the concept of salvation. Even more entertaining is the parallel between Buddha and Christ. Both Buddha and Christ had disciples or apostles.

    Buddhism originated 500 years before the Apostolic age and the origin of Christianity. The Gospel of Thomas shares many parallels with Buddhist tradition. The infancy of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke is comparatively the same as Buddha in Lalitavistara Sutra. During the purposed life of Christ and time in which the Gospel of Thomas was composed, Buddhist missionaries lived in Alexandria, Egypt. By the time of Christ, the teachings of Buddha has already spread through most of India and ppenetrated in Sri Lanka, Central Asia, and China.

    They similarities such as Christian moral precepts of more than five centires later, the sanctity of life, compassion for others, rejection of violence, confession and emphasis on charity and the practice of virute. Emperor Ashoka sent missionaries to Syria, Egypt, and Greece possibly setting the stage for Christian teachings. Christian and Buddhist Parallels: monasticism and communal living for spirtual adherents which adhered to the principles of pracitcing poverty and chastitty, early Christian Councils reminciscent in orignazation of Buddhist councils, millsonaries and missons which were first organized and established by Buddhist, all predate the early Christian organizations in the same areas where Christianity was first established such as Antioch.

    Buddha and Christ were born from a virgin. Numerous parallels in the birth story such as; the palm tree bends down to Mary as the Asoka tree to Yashodara. The Story of Simeon, the accounts of the bright light being almost word for word the same. The Idol bending down to the infant Jesus. The miracle of the sparrows restored to life. Judas Iscariot in the early life attacked Jesus, just as Devadetta, the Judas of Buddhism, attacked Buddha.

    A violent blow that Jesus received in the lief side made a mark that was destined to be the exact spot that received the mortal spear thrust at the Crucifixion. Thee story of the disputation with the doctors seems copied from the Lalita Vistara. Both Jesus and Buddha were said to have walked on water. Both also brought a disciple out on to the water with them, allowing them to be able to walk based only on their faith in their teacher. Both begin to sink when the doubt. Queen Maya came to bear Buddha after receiving a prophetic dream in which she saw the descent of the Bodhisattva from the Tusita heaven into her womb, in the shape of a small white elephant.

    Sharing many parallels with the story of Jesus being conceived in connection with the visitation of the Holy Spirit to Mary. The iconography of Mary breastfeeding the child Jesus, unknown to the west until the 5-6th century has also been conneced with the much more ancient iconography of the goddes Hariti, Also breastfeeding her child, and wearing Hellenistic clothes in the Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara. T.W. Rhys David once said " Lamaism with its shaven priest, its bells and rosaries, its images and holy water, its popes and bishops, its abbots and monks of many grades, its processions and feast days, its confessional and purgatory, its worship of the double Virgin, so strong resembles Roamanism that the first Catholic missionaries thought it must be an imitation by the devil of the religion of Christ."

    Rosaries spread from India to Western Europe during the Crusades via its Muslim version, the tasbih. A form of prayer rope appears to have been used in Eastern Christendom much earlier; so, it is argued the Muslim tasbih may originate from a Christian source. Both have 33 beads corresponding to the years of Christ's life. Prayer with Palms touching on another, the Anjali Mudra, is a common form of greeting and prayer gesture in all Indian spiritual traditions, including the Buddhist.

    It is absent in Jewish traditions who scriptures specify raised or clasped hands. Prayer with palms touching one another is, however, depicted in Christian art from the middle ages onward. These are but a few religions and examples.

    I can digress all day if I wanted to. The point is that your connotation that Egyptians and Christian's are different only proves your lack of historical knowledge on the subject. As far as the ten commandments dictating morality, the other rules and laws that exist within the Old Testament have little to do with morality and more to do with functioning of day to day life. I can't untie the Bible and it's followers, they are one in the same, and as long as the Bible is read as a factual element then it's followers will always delay scientific inquiry and advancement of humanity.

    The fact you said that few Christian's are superstitious is insane! Why would anyone follow the writings in a book from the Middle East if not for superstition? You have to telepathically accept your lord and savior and allow him a place in your heart, any of your transgressions must be brought in prayer a telepathic form of communication with a god, if you fail to accept him you will burn in hell, you must have your faith in Christ's publicly displayed by baptism, you consume the Bread and Wine as Flesh and Blood of your dead and revived god, you teach the trinity or that three people are actually one, and more than anything you believe that when a Christian dies their soul will rise to heaven to live for eternity with all your other followers.

    Now how is that not superstition? Superstition was what allowed the Church to teach the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. Birth Control is a major no-no to practicing Catholics, and don't even say they aren't Christian because without them other denominations wouldn't exist, the pope denounces condoms and hormonal control saying that withdrawal is the only acceptable way.

    You ever wondered why that was? Maybe it's because in order for a religion to continue to exist it must have followers, and the best way to increase your follower base is have your followers produce many children. It's easier for a convert to produce a child and they by default are a practitioner of that religion, than to run around and shove it down other peoples throat. As for your comment about the world's greatest men believing in God, whom are you referring to?

    Most, if not all, the greatest scientist were agnostic not Christian. I am not saying that those who believe in God are unfit, I am saying those that let it control their life and make decisions based of what they think their God would want are unfit. WWJD is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard.
    Last edited by The Celt; November 22nd, 2010 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Run On Sentence/Paragraph Mania
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Arnold View Post
    Lent is NOT a christian teaching anyway...it has nothing to do with christianity in any sense, but only catholocism.
    Stick to AAS Mike, your way off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisJamesW-III View Post
    Current christianity owes its existence to Roman Catholicism
    No...it doesn'tand this argument is off-base. Not only did Catholcism not even begin until about 100 years after after christianity had been spread around the then known modern world, but Lent has no basis for being followed in the Bible, which is the ONLY measuring stick for christian faith. On top of that, christianity is also strongly drawn from both the OT and the NT...no just the NT. Both are accepted as "God's word" in christianity and considered essentail to a thorough understanding of both God's will for the christian, as well as for a proper understand of salvation and last day events.

    There isno dobt christianity preced Catholocism....to deny is goes against history. The church was already established before the word "Catholic" was even uttered and it did not arrive until well after the last appostle/disciple was dead. Christian teaching and instruction was already firmly establish prior to Catholocism making it's entrance. To deny the firmly established existence of christianity prior to Catholocism goes against everything the Bible itself teaches regrding the history of the early church, as well as historical records confirming it.


    .........it was taken from obscure fringe cult 2000 years ago to its current by them for power and political reasons.
    Your are correct in stating that the Catholic church began to overtake christianity (which was already well established) at about 100 AD, but it wasn't until about 330AD that the catholic church has succeeded in dismantling all other formal christian organizations and demanding obedience, aside from relatively small backyard strutures. It was at bout 500-600AD that the catholic church ruled completely supreme and entered the time period where it more closely resembled satansim than christianity. This continued for over 1000 years until the reformation. It was only after that time period in which people once gaian were able to read the Bible for themselves and apply it as written and instucted prior to the catholic's church's attempted destruction of the religion it claimed to uphold.

    I know the history of early christianity and catholocism all to well, as it was a topic of rather intense study prior to becoming an asisstant pastor and later being nominated as head pastor (which I turned down), all of which preceeded what chirstians would refer to as "backsliding", which took place almost 7 years ago. Since then, I have not denied my faith, but am far from the person I was.

    There is nothing unique in dismissing it whilst claiming your upstart brand of US christianity is the correct one.
    If you only got the begining part correct....you would have been correct.

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