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Thread: glucose disposal agents

  1. #18
    Bro Scientist silverbackn's Avatar
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    Trained athletes of course have a higher insulin efficiency than untrained athletes, but I still think GDA's are helpful. Why not do everything you can to maximize your training!
    Nutrex Research
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    Amateur Threat nutratroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbackn View Post
    Trained athletes of course have a higher insulin efficiency than untrained athletes, but I still think GDA's are helpful. Why not do everything you can to maximize your training!
    Great statement SB. Use a GDA protocol year round as well.
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    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutratroy View Post
    Great statement SB. Use a GDA protocol year round as well.

    What's your GDA supp program consist of?
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    Amateur Threat nutratroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    What's your GDA supp program consist of?
    Hey Tipsta. I use K-R-ALA, 4-hydroxyisoleucine, Taurine, Chromium and some Branch-chains. Sill unsure about L-glutamine, but my wife swears by it. I used tons with my older protocols while at VPX...but glutamine studies swing as well as most opinions on it.

    I actually follow your posts. I know you a huge fan of Dan D.. and his bodyopus. I know your health background from what you post....it would be very enjoyable if you could write a overview upon your clinical findings and real world experances for everyone here. I feel you have a lot to offer. GDA protocols is a fairly untaped topic, one I feel you know much about. With open minds and solid research, we all can learn something here.
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  5. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by nutratroy View Post
    Hey Tipsta. I use K-R-ALA, 4-hydroxyisoleucine, Taurine, Chromium and some Branch-chains. Sill unsure about L-glutamine, but my wife swears by it. I used tons with my older protocols while at VPX...but glutamine studies swing as well as most opinions on it.

    I actually follow your posts. I know you a huge fan of Dan D.. and his bodyopus. I know your health background from what you post....it would be very enjoyable if you could write a overview upon your clinical findings and real world experances for everyone here. I feel you have a lot to offer. GDA protocols is a fairly untaped topic, one I feel you know much about. With open minds and solid research, we all can learn something here.


    AGREED!

  6. #23

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    I agree as well...let's get some solid info! We all LOVE to learn.

  7. #24
    Amateur Threat nutratroy's Avatar
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    Get Eric, Layne and Danny (dersuaran..sp) in here as well.

    Think pool Damn it!
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    Team Gaspari Deserusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    So putting more nutrients into the muscle than would be humanly possible without GDA'S is not beneficial to the trained athlete?

    Maximizing nutrient uptake while minimizing insulin threshold to consistantly enter the muscle cell and shun the fat cell is not beneficial to the trained athlete?

    WOW!!! Thats all I can say!!!
    I don't think its necessary. Does that make me an idiot or something? I've read the research on most of the GCD's and they are VERY poor. There is a big difference between in vitro study and an in vivo study monitoring the effect on a highly trained athlete.

    Vanadium = extremely poor bioavailability and why I recommend Bis(maltolato)oxovanadium.

    http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/17/1/11

    ALA = poor bioavailbility hence the reason I recommend K-R-ALA. ALA comes in either an S or R enantiomers. The S version can inhibit ATP production in skeletal muscle which IS NOT beneficial to an athlete. The R version is the beneficial one but is typically very unstable which makes it essentially useless. Anyone with manufacturing experience can attest to this, as long as they aren't marketing it.

    K-RALA = potassium-R-lipoate which is much more stable in a powder, tablet, etc form.

    Breithaupt-Grögler K, Niebch G, Schneider E, Erb K, Hermann R, Blume HH, Schug BS, Belz GG.Dose-proportionality of oral thioctic acid--coincidence of assessments via pooled plasma and individual data. Eur J Pharm Sci. 1999 Apr;8(1):57-65.

    Chromium Picolinate = worthless in trained adults, obese adults, and sedentary adults:

    Walker, L.S., Bemben, M.G., Bemben, D.A., Knehans, A.W. (1998). Chromium picolinate effects on body composition and muscular performance in wrestlers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 30(12), 1730-1737

    Lukaski, H.C., Bolonchuk, W.W., Siders, W.A., & Milne, D.B. (1996). Chromium supplementation and resistence training: effects on body composition, strength, and trace element status of men.American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 63, 954- 965.

    Grant KE, Chandler RM, Castle AL, Ivy JL. Chromium and exercise training: effect on obese women. Med Sci.Sports Exerc. 1997;29:992-8.


    Chromium Nicotinate = poor bioavailabity compared to chromium picolinate FYI.

    DiSilvestro RA, Dy E. Comparison of acute absorption of commercially available chromium supplements. J Trace Elem Med Biol. 2007;21(2):120-4. Epub 2007 Mar 19.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverbackn View Post
    Trained athletes of course have a higher insulin efficiency than untrained athletes, but I still think GDA's are helpful. Why not do everything you can to maximize your training!
    I agree. However, I don't recommend 99% of what's on the market because for the most part it is a waste of money with poor biovavailbity and negative research. There are very few glucose disposal agents which truly help a trained athlete.
    Last edited by Deserusan; August 8th, 2007 at 01:25 AM.
    Heretic


  9. #26
    Bro Scientist silverbackn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserusan View Post
    I don't think its necessary. Does that make me an idiot or something? I've read the research on most of the GCD's and they are VERY poor. There is a big difference between in vitro study and an in vivo study monitoring the effect on a highly trained athlete.

    Vanadium = extremely poor bioavailability and why I recommend Bis(maltolato)oxovanadium.

    http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/17/1/11

    ALA = poor bioavailbility hence the reason I recommend K-R-ALA. ALA comes in either an S or R enantiomers. The S version can inhibit ATP production in skeletal muscle which IS NOT beneficial to an athlete. The R version is the beneficial one but is typically very unstable which makes it essentially useless. Anyone with manufacturing experience can attest to this, as long as they aren't marketing it.

    K-RALA = potassium-R-lipoate which is much more stable in a powder, tablet, etc form.

    Breithaupt-Grögler K, Niebch G, Schneider E, Erb K, Hermann R, Blume HH, Schug BS, Belz GG.Dose-proportionality of oral thioctic acid--coincidence of assessments via pooled plasma and individual data. Eur J Pharm Sci. 1999 Apr;8(1):57-65.

    Chromium Picolinate = worthless in trained adults, obese adults, and sedentary adults:

    Walker, L.S., Bemben, M.G., Bemben, D.A., Knehans, A.W. (1998). Chromium picolinate effects on body composition and muscular performance in wrestlers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 30(12), 1730-1737

    Lukaski, H.C., Bolonchuk, W.W., Siders, W.A., & Milne, D.B. (1996). Chromium supplementation and resistence training: effects on body composition, strength, and trace element status of men.American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 63, 954- 965.

    Grant KE, Chandler RM, Castle AL, Ivy JL. Chromium and exercise training: effect on obese women. Med Sci.Sports Exerc. 1997;29:992-8.

    Chromium Nicotinate = poor bioavailabity compared to chromium picolinate FYI.

    DiSilvestro RA, Dy E. Comparison of acute absorption of commercially available chromium supplements. J Trace Elem Med Biol. 2007;21(2):120-4. Epub 2007 Mar 19.



    I agree. However, I don't recommend 99% of what's on the market because for the most part it is a waste of money with poor biovavailbity and negative research. There are very few glucose disposal agents which truly help a trained athlete.
    Very good thread bro! I will agree that a large majority of GDA's are here today and gone tommorow so to speak. What do you think is the best product or compound out as a GDA as of now?
    Nutrex Research
    Exercise Science BS, CSCS

  10. #27
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserusan View Post
    I don't think its necessary. Does that make me an idiot or something? I've read the research on most of the GCD's and they are VERY poor. There is a big difference between in vitro study and an in vivo study monitoring the effect on a highly trained athlete.

    Vanadium = extremely poor bioavailability and why I recommend Bis(maltolato)oxovanadium.

    http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/17/1/11

    ALA = poor bioavailbility hence the reason I recommend K-R-ALA. ALA comes in either an S or R enantiomers. The S version can inhibit ATP production in skeletal muscle which IS NOT beneficial to an athlete. The R version is the beneficial one but is typically very unstable which makes it essentially useless. Anyone with manufacturing experience can attest to this, as long as they aren't marketing it.

    K-RALA = potassium-R-lipoate which is much more stable in a powder, tablet, etc form.

    Breithaupt-Grögler K, Niebch G, Schneider E, Erb K, Hermann R, Blume HH, Schug BS, Belz GG.Dose-proportionality of oral thioctic acid--coincidence of assessments via pooled plasma and individual data. Eur J Pharm Sci. 1999 Apr;8(1):57-65.

    Chromium Picolinate = worthless in trained adults, obese adults, and sedentary adults:

    Walker, L.S., Bemben, M.G., Bemben, D.A., Knehans, A.W. (1998). Chromium picolinate effects on body composition and muscular performance in wrestlers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 30(12), 1730-1737

    Lukaski, H.C., Bolonchuk, W.W., Siders, W.A., & Milne, D.B. (1996). Chromium supplementation and resistence training: effects on body composition, strength, and trace element status of men.American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 63, 954- 965.

    Grant KE, Chandler RM, Castle AL, Ivy JL. Chromium and exercise training: effect on obese women. Med Sci.Sports Exerc. 1997;29:992-8.

    Chromium Nicotinate = poor bioavailabity compared to chromium picolinate FYI.

    DiSilvestro RA, Dy E. Comparison of acute absorption of commercially available chromium supplements. J Trace Elem Med Biol. 2007;21(2):120-4. Epub 2007 Mar 19.



    I agree. However, I don't recommend 99% of what's on the market because for the most part it is a waste of money with poor biovavailbity and negative research. There are very few glucose disposal agents which truly help a trained athlete.

    Have you ever done any blood glucose tests with any GDA'S. I have. 5 tests per meal. With and without my GDA program. I have glucose measurements as high as 210 1/2 hour after meal without GDA'S. I have never seen a reading higher than 160 with them! I believe in self experimentation. The proof is in the pudding and my glucometer is the pudding. While all you guys keep posting studies I'm doing my own tests on my personal response to foods which is what you guys should be doing. In fact I believe any bodybuilder that doesnt use a glucose meter is not worth discussing this topic with which is why I no longer desire to .

    Also Picolinate is TOXIC and not on the GRAS list where polynicotinate is not toxic and IS on the GRAS list and has MUCH more availability to the body
    http://www.oralchelation.com/ingred/chromium.htm

    All you guys are right! THEY DONT WORK! So dont bother using them.
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
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  11. #28
    Mass Monster GEARD UP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    Have you ever done any blood glucose tests with any GDA'S. I have. 5 tests per meal. With and without my GDA program. I have glucose measurements as high as 210 1/2 hour after meal without GDA'S. I have never seen a reading higher than 160 with them! I believe in self experimentation. The proof is in the pudding and my glucometer is the pudding. While all you guys keep posting studies I'm doing my own tests on my personal response to foods which is what you guys should be doing. In fact I believe any bodybuilder that doesnt use a glucose meter is not worth discussing this topic with which is why I no longer desire to .

    Also Picolinate is TOXIC and not on the GRAS list where polynicotinate is not toxic and IS on the GRAS list and has MUCH more availability to the body
    http://www.oralchelation.com/ingred/chromium.htm

    All you guys are right! THEY DONT WORK! So dont bother using them.
    whoa settle down there killer.........

    i think that out of everyone on the board you are the biggest gda user. i think that they just wanted some insight from ya thats all
    2013 NPC MID-ILLINOIS LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP

  12. #29
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam McVey View Post
    whoa settle down there killer.........

    i think that out of everyone on the board you are the biggest gda user. i think that they just wanted some insight from ya thats all
    SORRY, SORRY!....LOL 2.5 weeks out from the FLORIDA and I'm getting LOOPY!!!.....It's just that from my short lived experience here there are too many guys who are VERY knowlegeable on topics from research but have no actual self clinical trials to discuss. FUCK what the research shows!!! If it doesnt work for me its useless! All I hear is how GLUTAMINE is a waste of money from everyone with all this clinical shit behind it. Meanwhile I find it to BLOW the doors off CREATINE for cell VOLUMIZATION. Besides I already posted my GDA program then someone else says someting and another reads it and since its what they want to hear they disregard what I said. People dont want answers. They want confirmation on what they think is right. They ask 10 people the same question till they get the answer they want.
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  13. #30
    Amateur Threat nutratroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    SORRY, SORRY!....LOL 2.5 weeks out from the FLORIDA and I'm getting LOOPY!!!.....It's just that from my short lived experience here there are too many guys who are VERY knowlegeable on topics from research but have no actual self clinical trials to discuss. FUCK what the research shows!!! If it doesnt work for me its useless! All I hear is how GLUTAMINE is a waste of money from everyone with all this clinical shit behind it. Meanwhile I find it to BLOW the doors off CREATINE for cell VOLUMIZATION. Besides I already posted my GDA program then someone else says someting and another reads it and since its what they want to hear they disregard what I said. People dont want answers. They want confirmation on what they think is right. They ask 10 people the same question till they get the answer they want.
    LMAO...Tipsta is dialing it in! Bro...always keep in mind, there is three sides to every story or more then one way to skin a cat!

    Hell, think of yourself as Christopher Columbus. When everyone thought the world was flat, he "knew" it was round.....think about it!

    Bro, everyone here is just discussing the issue...I whole heartly believe you have wonderful insight. We are just wanting to get all info on the table. Easy brother, we want to hear your insight and real life testing results... Very interesting bro..good job.

    I think you explaining your insight could be very helpful, very!
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  14. #31
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Here's how I see it. Insulin is the DEATH hormone and I think we can all agree on that. It has the ability to cause inflamation to almost every cell in the human body. It can induce disease and sickness. By damaging cells it will SHORTEN your lifespan. There are many who believe that a restricted caloric diet will increase ones lifespan. It is because of the fact that insulin is supressed at a higher level throughout ones life. We know that insulin is needed as the storage hormone but we also know that insulin ONLY enters the fat cell at a high enough threshold and will ONLY enter the muscle cell if the threshold is low enough. Taking all of this into consideration it is obvious that in order to keep insulin at a minimum we must keep carbs at a minimum. AGREED? However keeping carbs at a minimum is the one sure way to STOP any and all progress not to mention constant depletion. This is why I'm so passionate about CERTAIN GDA's or insulin mimickers as some say. Specifically niacin bound chromium and the sulfate form of vanadium. Chromium has the ability to make the insulin your body releases much more effective which in return allows the body to release less and remove the same amount of blood sugar or more at a much lower threshold. Vanadyl sulfate has an amazing ability to remove blood sugar on its own without any insulin present. Now the body needs even less insulin to do the same exact job at a much more efficient rate also doing all this at a much lower insulin threshold. I use the lowest amounts recomended per meal and at 4 a day. I use 200 mcg Chromium polynicotinate and 10 mgs Vanadyl sulfate at meal 1,2,4 and 6. I take them anywhere from first bite to last bite. I find that they are so effective that if taken PRIOR to a meal they actually inhibit insulin release to the point where carb storage is actually hindered. Obviously they are most effective with high GI foods due to the fact they cause insulin to release at a higher threshold thus causing fat storage. As I've said before I've also done numerous blood tests with and without using every GI food possible and have lower readings with them, which is ALL the proof I need to know I am lowering my insulin threshold. Besides the fact I'm able to exceed the glycogen levels in my muscle far beyond those who use anabolics even. That alone was the proof before I went out and started pricking my finger 30 times a day. NO bullshit! 5 per meal and 6 meals a day. Did this for over 2 weeks!!!
    Last edited by Tipsta; August 8th, 2007 at 03:47 PM.
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  15. #32
    Iron Addict Dopetastic's Avatar
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    GDA's look interesting based on what you have posted here. what brand do you usually buy and where do you get them? i would like to get a blood glucose meter and try this shit out for myself.
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    Amateur Threat nutratroy's Avatar
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    Tipsta- a few questions.

    1- Why only those two compounds out of so many
    2- Do you follow the same foods daily or very some of the details mentioned above in your GDA protocol?

    Do you think this is the best Anti-aging tatic as far as OTC?
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  17. #34
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutratroy View Post
    Tipsta- a few questions.

    1- Why only those two compounds out of so many
    2- Do you follow the same foods daily or very some of the details mentioned above in your GDA protocol?

    Do you think this is the best Anti-aging tatic as far as OTC?


    Chom and vanadyl are the king of the hill when it comes to GDA's. PERIOD!!! Besides, I really dont know of any others besides r-ala and for one I have ZERO experience with it and two have absolutely no need for it because of the effectiveness of the two. Yes, I eat the exact same foods every day! I follow a wet /dry carb every other meal protocol as well as a high GI low GI every other meal protocol. Strictly speaking carbs, meal 1 oats, 2 white potato, 3 brown rice, 4 white potato, 5 brown rice/thick undercooked pasta/oats, 6 white potato. Also as I've mentioned elsewhere, I also calculate sodium and potassium. Intracellular fluid is made up of 10 parts potassium and one part sodium. Extracellular fluid is made up of 28 parts sodium 1 part potassium. The closer your potassium to sodium ratio gets towards 10 to 1 the more fluid is directed into the muscle. White potatos make up half of my carbohydrate intake because of the fact that each 50 gram of carb serving has 1221 mgs of potassium. Potassium is ONLY absobable in liquid form or food source. Potassium supps are useles in pill form and besides they are usually in 99mg servings. 99 mgs couldnt feed a cavity. The reason I mention all of this is without my GDA's I could never eat as much HIGH GI white potatos without them. In fact I've cut out my GDA'S numerous times and by meal 4 I start getting very watery from the insulin spikes. GDA'S, for me at least, have drug like effects when it comes to keeping me drier and harder which brings us right back to the fact that if I'm staying drier and harder with such large amounts of high GI foods the insulin has GOT TO BE at a lower threshold. The problem is most never match the diet with the supps. Thats the most important thing. They are also GREAT for those times we binge on foods NOT on our diet. 5 mins before you eat take 400 mcg chrom 20 mgs vanadyl and I GUARANTEE less insulin will be available to store any excess fat circulating in the body due to the low insulin threshold.

    OMG>>>>>Anti aging??? YES!!!!!!! Now you get it!!!!! It has been proven scientifically, which I know you guys love,...LOL.... that insulin supression is the #1 way to prevent aging. Not to mention diabetes, hypoglycemia, cell damage due to inflamation. This has got to be the one fact we ALL agree on. INSULIN = DEATH!!!
    Last edited by Tipsta; August 8th, 2007 at 05:57 PM.
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