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Thread: Re: Dorian.....

  1. #86
    Forum Leader: 18 and Over bigmikecox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Harris View Post
    Exactly my point. There are a ton of really fat, watery guys on gear, but I only consider actual muscle mass when comparing 'size' of one man to another.
    Pro bbers are have to be seen in person to REALLY appreciate how big they are. Whats more impressive is how big they are in contest shape! Pics dont do them justice! I see some big guys in the gym, but to be big and have some quality

  2. #87
    IFBB - PRO Evan Centopani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyBaldhead View Post
    farrell is right on point. The degree of inclination to build muscle NATURALLY does NOT matter once gear enters the equation, exactly because gear allows for people to overcome / bypass ALL those previous genetic limitations. What matters then is the actual genetic response to gear, which is a very different kind of beast altogether. Can anyone become huge by taking insane amounts of gear and eating mountains of food? Absolutely. Can they become a top pro? No way.
    I see what you're saying but there are guys who are naturally skinny and even once they start taking gear and eating more, they're still not big. There's got to still be SOME genetic component to it, even once gear enters the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGough View Post
    My two cents
    Only in bodybuilding does it seem the perception exists that anyone if they train hard enough and exhibit extreme dedication can become the best in their sport. What is needed is not merely good genetics, but great genetics. Tiger Woods is super dedicated but his golfing prowess is overwhelmingly down to the fact that he was born with a gift to master the intricate techniques of guiding a ball around a golf course. In tennis Roger Federer trains like a Titan but he has won a record 17 Grand Slam titles because fate bequeathed him the ability to attain world beating racket skills. Same with bodybuilding. To be a champion you need those great genetics. Being born with narrow clavicles, wide hips, short legs, a long trunk and short muscle insertions is not a resume destined to disrupt Phil Heath’s sleeping habits. So for starters to make it at the top level you must have a good skeletal structure.
    In addition what is then needed is a superior ability to respond to progressive resistance training and accumulate muscle mass. Kerry Kayes, British Masters champion, past promoter of the English Grand Prix and contest prep advisor illustrates that latter point very well: “Imagine that a normal person is born with two bricklayers inside him which help to build muscle. And imagine that a future Mr. Olympia is born with seven bricklayers inside him. The normal person may take a load of gear and double his muscle building ability and end up with four bricklayers, which still isn’t as many as Mr. Olympia beforr he starts the gear.” Following on from that rationale it’s a personal contention that it is those less genetically gifted who take the most drugs: But that’s an argument for another time.
    100% spot on Peter

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    Iron Addict farrellzach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Centopani View Post
    I see what you're saying but there are guys who are naturally skinny and even once they start taking gear and eating more, they're still not big. There's got to still be SOME genetic component to it, even once gear enters the equation.
    A wild Centopani appears!

    Like I said, being 5'10 and 250lbs and narrow as fuck doesn't look huge. Big? Yeah, but not "holy shit."

    Similarly, a guy at 5'10 and 230 with wide shoulders and a tiny waist can look much bigger than the guy with 20lbs on him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Centopani View Post
    I see what you're saying but there are guys who are naturally skinny and even once they start taking gear and eating more, they're still not big. There's got to still be SOME genetic component to it, even once gear enters the equation.
    This is very true. Which is why pro bodybuilders can be pros and not die off while competing. If science and studies were actually legit and not funded by the govt or corporations then they would take young adults that have extreme athletic ability and musculature(without supps) and compare them to a skinny jean emo dudes. Run complete tests on levels of testosterone, GH, igf, myostatin, satellite cells, body fat comp, muscle density, energy muscles produce etc.. Would be interesting

  6. #91
    MD Staff Ron Harris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Centopani View Post
    I see what you're saying but there are guys who are naturally skinny and even once they start taking gear and eating more, they're still not big. There's got to still be SOME genetic component to it, even once gear enters the equation.
    There is. The only people who insist otherwise are:
    A) Delusional, and want to believe they can be the size of a pro with enough gear
    B) Drug gurus and/or drug dealers (often one and the same) who stand to profit from promoting that delusion.

    Farrellzach is a very intelligent guy from the contest of his posts, but he continues to assert that he can take 'anyone' and get them to pro size. Though this is far from a perfect analogy, this is like an MMA coach saying he can take 'anyone' and have them fighting as well as the top men of the UFC. There has to be a good amount of raw talent to begin with.

  7. #92
    MD Staff Ron Harris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farrellzach View Post
    A wild Centopani appears!

    Like I said, being 5'10 and 250lbs and narrow as fuck doesn't look huge. Big? Yeah, but not "holy shit."

    Similarly, a guy at 5'10 and 230 with wide shoulders and a tiny waist can look much bigger than the guy with 20lbs on him.
    Would you please do this if it's not too much trouble? Crop out the faces, but show me a couple 'genetically average' guys you have helped attain pro size. I really need to see what these guys look like, and I promise to admit I am off base if you can indeed show me that any run-of-the-mill gym rat can be as big as a pro.

  8. #93
    MD Staff Ron Harris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLIP View Post
    This is very true. Which is why pro bodybuilders can be pros and not die off while competing. If science and studies were actually legit and not funded by the govt or corporations then they would take young adults that have extreme athletic ability and musculature(without supps) and compare them to a skinny jean emo dudes. Run complete tests on levels of testosterone, GH, igf, myostatin, satellite cells, body fat comp, muscle density, energy muscles produce etc.. Would be interesting
    I bet we would see how very different they are in many ways far beyond the obvious things like structure, muscle belly length, and shape.

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    Iron Addict farrellzach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Harris View Post
    Would you please do this if it's not too much trouble? Crop out the faces, but show me a couple 'genetically average' guys you have helped attain pro size. I really need to see what these guys look like, and I promise to admit I am off base if you can indeed show me that any run-of-the-mill gym rat can be as big as a pro.
    Currently in the process of working with a couple non-forum guys now. I'd be more than happy to put pictures up this spring once we've taken a couple months to figure out their bodies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Centopani View Post
    I recently read Dorian's account of what he was taking back in the day. I became curious and decided to do some of my own investigating. I called up Temple Gym and asked for Leroy. Then I said "Hey Leroy, I know you have nothing better to do and don't mind handing out personal info so do you mind telling me what Dorian was taking back in the day?" He was like "Sure mate. Hold on a second, I have everything written down in this book we keep under the counter. We keep it here so when people call and ask about Dorian's gear usage, we have all the details handy." "Really?" I exclaimed with joy. Then he said "No. Now fuck off!" and hung up on me.

    HAHAHAHA AWESOME

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Centopani View Post
    I recently read Dorian's account of what he was taking back in the day. I became curious and decided to do some of my own investigating. I called up Temple Gym and asked for Leroy. Then I said "Hey Leroy, I know you have nothing better to do and don't mind handing out personal info so do you mind telling me what Dorian was taking back in the day?" He was like "Sure mate. Hold on a second, I have everything written down in this book we keep under the counter. We keep it here so when people call and ask about Dorian's gear usage, we have all the details handy." "Really?" I exclaimed with joy. Then he said "No. Now fuck off!" and hung up on me.

    Ha sounds like Leroy to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Centopani View Post
    I recently read Dorian's account of what he was taking back in the day. I became curious and decided to do some of my own investigating. I called up Temple Gym and asked for Leroy. Then I said "Hey Leroy, I know you have nothing better to do and don't mind handing out personal info so do you mind telling me what Dorian was taking back in the day?" He was like "Sure mate. Hold on a second, I have everything written down in this book we keep under the counter. We keep it here so when people call and ask about Dorian's gear usage, we have all the details handy." "Really?" I exclaimed with joy. Then he said "No. Now fuck off!" and hung up on me.
    http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Mus...%20Rimshot.wav

  13. #98
    MD Staff Ron Harris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farrellzach View Post
    Currently in the process of working with a couple non-forum guys now. I'd be more than happy to put pictures up this spring once we've taken a couple months to figure out their bodies.
    Looking forward to that, best of luck with them.

  14. #99
    Amateur Threat Guy Hungwell's Avatar
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    Another thing is going back 15 plus years ago people seemed to enjoy working out and the ones who competed did it for the challenge and personal satisfaction. Drugs were there in varying degree but for the most part this whole so called "in the know" erea has ruined working out in general ad bodybuilding at the grassroots because people are taking godawful amounts from the start just to compete at even the novice and regional level because of what they think xyz pro did or assume they did/do.

    I mean you have kids today that dont even know how many calories there are in an average egg using a whack of shit, training half assed(chest/shoulders/arms 3-4 times a week with some leg extenisions partial leg presses hammer pulldowns and rows thrown in here and there) and relying on protein drinks to make up for the shit they eat and the x, horse tranqs, coke, oxys etc they abuse all weekend because they just want to look good at a massive 160lbs on the weekend. Hey if thats a persons goal then go for it but n need to vn use juice for some of the physiques I see in the gym and what guys are using to get it. Then they point at pros today and say, well "well he looks like that because he takes so much more than everyone"

    Perhaps, but xyz pro/amateur(the ones who last for years) hasnt missed an in/off season meal very often, actually trains their whole body and uses the squat rack for barbell curls because they can actually curl 135-225 in decent form.
    Also most guys on these internet boards the majority love to show off their deadlift prowess in videos yet rarely show off their squat process. Dont get me wrong deads are a hard exercise but squats are many times harder and frnkly most dont do them. I am referring to the younger crowd of teens and twentysomethings here.

    My point is all these people who cop out that the other guy uses more are the same ones that done eat right for the goals they have, and they dont do ost of the actual old school growth moves that the biggest guys did in the first place to get that original bulk before going on the gas. Instead they put the drugs first and expect it to do most of the work.

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    Team MD Peter McGough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Hungwell View Post
    Another thing is going back 15 plus years ago people seemed to enjoy working out and the ones who competed did it for the challenge and personal satisfaction. Drugs were there in varying degree but for the most part this whole so called "in the know" erea has ruined working out in general ad bodybuilding at the grassroots because people are taking godawful amounts from the start just to compete at even the novice and regional level because of what they think xyz pro did or assume they did/do.

    I mean you have kids today that dont even know how many calories there are in an average egg using a whack of shit, training half assed(chest/shoulders/arms 3-4 times a week with some leg extenisions partial leg presses hammer pulldowns and rows thrown in here and there) and relying on protein drinks to make up for the shit they eat and the x, horse tranqs, coke, oxys etc they abuse all weekend because they just want to look good at a massive 160lbs on the weekend. Hey if thats a persons goal then go for it but n need to vn use juice for some of the physiques I see in the gym and what guys are using to get it. Then they point at pros today and say, well "well he looks like that because he takes so much more than everyone"

    Perhaps, but xyz pro/amateur(the ones who last for years) hasnt missed an in/off season meal very often, actually trains their whole body and uses the squat rack for barbell curls because they can actually curl 135-225 in decent form.
    Also most guys on these internet boards the majority love to show off their deadlift prowess in videos yet rarely show off their squat process. Dont get me wrong deads are a hard exercise but squats are many times harder and frnkly most dont do them. I am referring to the younger crowd of teens and twentysomethings here.

    My point is all these people who cop out that the other guy uses more are the same ones that done eat right for the goals they have, and they dont do ost of the actual old school growth moves that the biggest guys did in the first place to get that original bulk before going on the gas. Instead they put the drugs first and expect it to do most of the work.
    We have a winner!

  16. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmikecox View Post
    Pro bbers are have to be seen in person to REALLY appreciate how big they are. Whats more impressive is how big they are in contest shape! Pics dont do them justice! I see some big guys in the gym, but to be big and have some quality
    Yeah this is very true. I've been to 2 Arnold's now and those guys and "girls" look cartoonish. Pics/vids really doesn't get it across. It's like watching the NBA on TV and then meeting Dwight Howard in person.
    A standard is set when performance is taken to a new level.

  17. #102
    MD Staff Ron Harris's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Guy Hungwell;3284092]Another thing is going back 15 plus years ago people seemed to enjoy working out and the ones who competed did it for the challenge and personal satisfaction. Drugs were there in varying degree but for the most part this whole so called "in the know" erea has ruined working out in general ad bodybuilding at the grassroots because people are taking godawful amounts from the start just to compete at even the novice and regional level because of what they think xyz pro did or assume they did/do.

    I mean you have kids today that dont even know how many calories there are in an average egg using a whack of shit, training half assed(chest/shoulders/arms 3-4 times a week with some leg extenisions partial leg presses hammer pulldowns and rows thrown in here and there) and relying on protein drinks to make up for the shit they eat and the x, horse tranqs, coke, oxys etc they abuse all weekend because they just want to look good at a massive 160lbs on the weekend. Hey if thats a persons goal then go for it but n need to vn use juice for some of the physiques I see in the gym and what guys are using to get it. Then they point at pros today and say, well "well he looks like that because he takes so much more than everyone"

    Perhaps, but xyz pro/amateur(the ones who last for years) hasnt missed an in/off season meal very often, actually trains their whole body and uses the squat rack for barbell curls because they can actually curl 135-225 in decent form.
    Also most guys on these internet boards the majority love to show off their deadlift prowess in videos yet rarely show off their squat process. Dont get me wrong deads are a hard exercise but squats are many times harder and frnkly most dont do them. I am referring to the younger crowd of teens and twentysomethings here.

    My point is all these people who cop out that the other guy uses more are the same ones that done eat right for the goals they have, and they dont do ost of the actual old school growth moves that the biggest guys did in the first place to get that original bulk before going on the gas. Instead they put the drugs first and expect it to do most of the work.[/QUOTE]

    Back in the day, drugs really were considered a 'finishing touch.' Meaning, only if your training and nutrition were maximized were they a factor. The really old-school guys didn't even use gear at all in their off-season, only for contest prep. Doses were less than what we see Figure girls using today. But like you say, all the kids today have it ass-backwards - juice your brains out, train like a bitch, and eat like a bird.

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