Re: Dorian.....

[Ron Harris]

I absolutely believe I can make gains, given health and all that stays even.

Lets say I decide to push for my pro card or whatever in the next few years--I use the drugs required, the doses required, the food, all that. I have the perfect set up for a body builder. In 15 years will I still grow on say 3g of gear and 5iu of GH? Maybe not, but if I add something, I can still gain. Will it be pretty? No. will I have a guy like Palumbo's? Probably. But my body would continue to grow.

At a certain point (Which a guy like Phil is at), its a fine balance between making small gains, and maintaining a pleasing look. Phil COULD weigh 300lbs if he wanted to with the drugs in his arsenal, but he doesn't. It's not because he can't, it's because he would probably look like shit.

So in short:
-Yes, you could still grow.
-There may be no need to, but that doesn't mean your body just begins to reject what you do to it.

Good argument, but even you have to concede it's purely theoretical.

Tons of guys who were certainly trying to get bigger and who used ever-greater amounts of gear and food hit points where they simply could not get any bigger no matter how hard they tried. I have seen this with people I knew.

I don't know how you are so sure about your theory? If it were true, we would not see so many pro's stop growing. Certainly some reach a point where they don't seek any more mass, but many keep trying to grow until they retire, and obviously many of them must keep upping their doses.

[iamblessed22]

doesnt live to see 70

[Yourlastchance89]

After even just seeing pics of Vic Richards I have no idea how he wasn't a bigger name in bodybuilding

[Nik133]

Dorian is my favorite natural bodybuilder of all time.

[Roy G]

My two cents
Only in bodybuilding does it seem the perception exists that anyone if they train hard enough and exhibit extreme dedication can become the best in their sport. What is needed is not merely good genetics, but great genetics. Tiger Woods is super dedicated but his golfing prowess is overwhelmingly down to the fact that he was born with a gift to master the intricate techniques of guiding a ball around a golf course. In tennis Roger Federer trains like a Titan but he has won a record 17 Grand Slam titles because fate bequeathed him the ability to attain world beating racket skills. Same with bodybuilding. To be a champion you need those great genetics. Being born with narrow clavicles, wide hips, short legs, a long trunk and short muscle insertions is not a resume destined to disrupt Phil Heath’s sleeping habits. So for starters to make it at the top level you must have a good skeletal structure.
In addition what is then needed is a superior ability to respond to progressive resistance training and accumulate muscle mass. Kerry Kayes, British Masters champion, past promoter of the English Grand Prix and contest prep advisor illustrates that latter point very well: “Imagine that a normal person is born with two bricklayers inside him which help to build muscle. And imagine that a future Mr. Olympia is born with seven bricklayers inside him. The normal person may take a load of gear and double his muscle building ability and end up with four bricklayers, which still isn’t as many as Mr. Olympia beforr he starts the gear.” Following on from that rationale it’s a personal contention that it is those less genetically gifted who take the most drugs: But that’s an argument for another time.

Much respect Peter but have to disagree with you on some of your assertions. To use Tiger Woods as an example he was not freakishly gifted from the gods with golfing talent, rather he was freakishly raised from birth to be a golfing machine by his father. Reading Matthew Syed's book "Bounce" is a good starting point for uncovering the true nature of apparent 'sporting genius' in activities involving some level of skill.

The perennial drug dosage debate aside I would quite comfortably make the statement that in no other sport is the word 'genetics' used anywhere near as frequently as in bodybuilding in explaining performance, not even close.

[Ron Harris]

After even just seeing pics of Vic Richards I have no idea how he wasn't a bigger name in bodybuilding

He never competed in a pro show.

[Ron Harris]

But isnt it the case that they do indeed stop growing?
Look at Phil from the Olympia in 2008, he hasnt grown that much, just a few tweaks here and there.
Its the same with most Pros, they are hardly any different from when they become a pro to years later size wise.

I agree with you, but FarrellZach is trying to say that they only stop growing because they don't want to get any bigger, as it would ruin their lines. Heath is being very careful in that sense, but there are plenty of other pro's who have indeed kept trying to get as huge as possible, but reached points where they were unable to get any bigger no matter how much they juiced and ate. He doesn't think that's correct, he really does think that as long as you keep upping the dose and food intake, growth will continue until the day they die - kind of like an anaconda or a crocodile.

[Trey Dunbar]

Those are the 'biggest' men I ever saw in person, in terms of just freaky, full, round muscles.

ALL blacks??? Racist post reported.

[Ron Harris]

ALL blacks??? Racist post reported.

I suppose I could have thrown Dorian in there - but I usually only saw him once a year, on stage. The other guys I saw training and attending shows.

[the-unnatural]

ALL blacks??? Racist post reported.

LOL

[the-unnatural]

This thread can be never ending LOL. As will have always everyone opinion on how gear should be used. Nobody wins arguments, everyone will still have their own opinion, BUT some will be offended.

As far as Dorian drug use, only Dorian knows what he did, all else is simply speculation and rumors.

And no I dont believe he ran less than 1g of test.

[Kontour]

If you asked Dorian what his contest cycle was for the 1994 Olympia (or another specific show), do you think he could tell you milligram for milligram everything he used off the top of his head?

[Ron Harris]

If you asked Dorian what his contest cycle was for the 1994 Olympia (or another specific show), do you think he could tell you milligram for milligram everything he used off the top of his head?

Off the top of his head, no. But he kept detailed logs of his workouts and meals, I would assume he also kept track of his gear use.

[Guy Hungwell]

Off the top of his head, no. But he kept detailed logs of his workouts and meals, I would assume he also kept track of his gear use.

for once I would like to see a debate and questions on how(in this case Dorian) truly ate(on and off season), mindset, cardio, rest which are the BIG keys to why Dorian was Dorian.

Anyone can get bigger and more cut with drugs, eating etc even with the right structure and muscle bellies and genetics, but what makes the cut between a top amatuer or pro type of physique is alot more than just that because if it wasnt these boards would be full of guys with top physiques.

Wasnt it dorian who said back in the day that if he had flex wheelersn genetics he would have been mr 10 times over.

[farrellzach]

for once I would like to see a debate and questions on how(in this case Dorian) truly ate(on and off season), mindset, cardio, rest which are the BIG keys to why Dorian was Dorian.

Anyone can get bigger and more cut with drugs, eating etc even with the right structure and muscle bellies and genetics, but what makes the cut between a top amatuer or pro type of physique is alot more than just that because if it wasnt these boards would be full of guys with top physiques.

Wasnt it dorian who said back in the day that if he had flex wheelersn genetics he would have been mr 10 times over.

If Flex had Dorian's mindset, Flex would've been Mr. O 10x

But nice post, we've heard Levrone went through some dark shit at the top.

[Danny Manslaughter]

If Flex had Dorian's mindset, Flex would've been Mr. O 10x

But nice post, we've heard Levrone went through some dark shit at the top.

What kind of dark shit?

[farrellzach]

What kind of dark shit?

From what he's said in interviews (which may be exaggeration, may not be) he thought about killing himself quite a bit.