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    Quote Originally Posted by tjoe View Post
    no. there wouldn't be enough protein to support muscle mass especially if the subject were training hard (or at all). They'd still lose weight but much of it would be muscle mass as well. That in turn would slow the metabolism.
    Sorry, I know you asked Ron.
    Glad you chimed in actually. What about the muscle sparing effect that carbs would have in this scenario? Less protein used up for energy, more for muscle building. Not even considering the protein already contained in many carb sources.
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    Forum Leader: Training Journals tjoe's Avatar
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    Most carb sources have incomplete amino profiles. Even if you were to mix them, the amounts would still be negligible compared to a straight protein source. I don't think you need much carbohydrate for the "sparing" effect so 80% of calories would be overkill in that regard. What it would do however is keep insulin levels raised 24/7 since you would be eating carbs all day with minimal fats and protein sprinkled in.
    So if you don't have enough "building blocks" of muscle present, and the king storage hormone is elevated constantly... what gets stored?
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    Forum Leader: Training Journals tjoe's Avatar
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    using 2000 calories as a reference point...
    that would be 1600 calories from carbs or 400 grams.
    Assuming you split the remaining 20% evenly from fats and protein = 50g of pro and apx 22g of fats
    100g of fat has been shown to be "optimal" for hormone production. 1/4 of that doesn't seem ideal.
    Toss in the hormonal response of the carbs...
    And I'm not sure many here make it past 8am without 50g of protein.
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    What gets stored? Glycogen, perhaps? Given the demands imposed by training and other daily physical activities?
    Not trying to argue, just wondering if we have come to accept certain guidelines without giving it much thought.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tjoe View Post
    using 2000 calories as a reference point...
    that would be 1600 calories from carbs or 400 grams.
    Assuming you split the remaining 20% evenly from fats and protein = 50g of pro and apx 22g of fats
    100g of fat has been shown to be "optimal" for hormone production. 1/4 of that doesn't seem ideal.
    Toss in the hormonal response of the carbs...
    And I'm not sure many here make it past 8am without 50g of protein.
    Remember we also have Aminos in supplemental form that we could throw in the mix, while keeping a mostly carb diet. More like a insurance policy similar to what we would do with multi vitamins/minerals


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    Quote Originally Posted by SISTEROFJESUS View Post
    Glad you chimed in actually. What about the muscle sparing effect that carbs would have in this scenario? Less protein used up for energy, more for muscle building. Not even considering the protein already contained in many carb sources.
    Sorry guys, that was me. Forgot SOJ was logged in and not me.

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    Forum Leader: Training Journals tjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyIII View Post
    What gets stored? Glycogen, perhaps? Given the demands imposed by training and other daily physical activities?
    Not trying to argue, just wondering if we have come to accept certain guidelines without giving it much thought.


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    loaded question. Depends on training, drugs, etc. If you are in a deficit nothing should get stored but being in a deficit is only part of the equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by RockyIII View Post
    Remember we also have Aminos in supplemental form that we could throw in the mix, while keeping a mostly carb diet. More like a insurance policy similar to what we would do with multi vitamins/minerals


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    Again, using my example, why bother with aminos if you only want to eat 50g of protein in the first place? You'll get way more benefit from a quality scoop of whey isolate than a bunch of aminos.


    I think the big issue here is what are you trying to get out of it?
    You'll lose weight no doubt. BUT I do believe muscle will be too much of that weight lost.
    I recall a female that worked with a "guru" years ago. She wanted to go from BBing to more feminine etc. It worked like magic. Dropped protein to right around 50g I believe and overtrained as much as possible to eat away muscle. And that is exactly what happened. Now had she left calories the same but ramped up protein to 150-200g would it have produced the same result? Nope. May not have even overtrained, probably would have just recovered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegoon View Post
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    transf.jpg Still a few more weeks, just trying to look my best at the New Year. Been running 500mg Test/ 600mg EQ during this time and eating low carb, relatively high fat ketogenic type diet with occasional candy because I'm weak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by letsrun4it View Post
    transf.jpg Still a few more weeks, just trying to look my best at the New Year. Been running 500mg Test/ 600mg EQ during this time and eating low carb, relatively high fat ketogenic type diet with occasional candy because I'm weak.

    Nice improvements

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    Letsrun4it - looking good man

    tjoe - don't look now but your personal training background is showing. lol I enjoy reading that type of stuff- and I agree in 95% of people eating mostly all carbs seems stupid. If anything high protein and fats and Keto or carb cycling ... it's no coincidence Dietinf that way isn't when I. Always look my best hands down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjoe View Post
    loaded question. Depends on training, drugs, etc. If you are in a deficit nothing should get stored but being in a deficit is only part of the equation.

    Again, using my example, why bother with aminos if you only want to eat 50g of protein in the first place? You'll get way more benefit from a quality scoop of whey isolate than a bunch of aminos.


    I think the big issue here is what are you trying to get out of it?
    You'll lose weight no doubt. BUT I do believe muscle will be too much of that weight lost.
    I recall a female that worked with a "guru" years ago. She wanted to go from BBing to more feminine etc. It worked like magic. Dropped protein to right around 50g I believe and overtrained as much as possible to eat away muscle. And that is exactly what happened. Now had she left calories the same but ramped up protein to 150-200g would it have produced the same result? Nope. May not have even overtrained, probably would have just recovered.
    Why taking aminos? Same reason people take multi vitamins and minerals instead of eating all the foods (and in the amounts) that would provide those vitamins and minerals I guess.
    Also in reference to the example of the girls who changed her diet, you said her coach dropped her protein and put her on an overtrainng exercise program. What if she dropped protein but still kept overall targer calories for say, 1 pound/week loss, did not overtrain, and supplemented wirh aminos as training and cardio got more intense?
    Great observations on your part by the way, hope you and your family are doing great!

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    Quote Originally Posted by letsrun4it View Post
    transf.jpg Still a few more weeks, just trying to look my best at the New Year. Been running 500mg Test/ 600mg EQ during this time and eating low carb, relatively high fat ketogenic type diet with occasional candy because I'm weak.
    I have a piece of white chocolate with 2 or 3 of these bite-size chocolate covered coconut treats every night about 1 hour after dinner. I figure it could be worse 😊

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyIII View Post
    Why taking aminos? Same reason people take multi vitamins and minerals instead of eating all the foods (and in the amounts) that would provide those vitamins and minerals I guess.
    Also in reference to the example of the girls who changed her diet, you said her coach dropped her protein and put her on an overtrainng exercise program. What if she dropped protein but still kept overall targer calories for say, 1 pound/week loss, did not overtrain, and supplemented wirh aminos as training and cardio got more intense?
    Great observations on your part by the way, hope you and your family are doing great!

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    Two recent medical studies were conducted. Google them as I don't know the names or locations off hand. BCAA help with muscle wasting in cancer patients. They have been show to have no true anabolic effect. Supplementing with whey or a protein blend makes a lot more sense.

    Basically aside from the fact of the increased insulin production, the body will produce cortisol. As a response to the lack of protein and increased natural insulin production. I know a good bit about diabetes. Essentially your putting her in a pre diabetic state. Any way you spin this diet is a bad idea. I am always guessing wheat will be involved which is a whole other can of worms concerning gluten and bloating.

    The lessening of the most anabolic macro while doing anytime for training. Is going lead with and increase of insulin and cortisol. The lack of enough protein will lead to catabolism. The combination of of these factors will not lead to glycogen store but fat storage

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