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Thread: Back Training Question

  1. #1
    Beach Body crash2226's Avatar
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    Question Back Training Question

    After a year of training, I am still in the gray area of back training.
    My back is forming nicely, BUT, I want more width and thickness.

    After being a FAITHFUL MD reader I have come to a cross roads, here is my dilemia do most readers and experts. . . .

    A - just do 1 hard training session mixing width and thickness . . . ex: 7 exercises varying the types

    OR

    B - do a morning workout for Width ONLY and then an evening workout for Thickness ONLY

    HELP HELP HELP!!!

    Thanx
    Kevin

  2. #2

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    I think 2 workouts for the same bodypart in 1 day is pushing it. Some would suggest 2 back workouts per week, but personally i would do a primarily thickness workout 1 week and a width workout the next.

    Possible solutions:
    - 1 workout per week, which includes both width and thickness exercises (prolly what your doing atm)

    - 2 workouts per week, 1 aiming at thickness and the other at width

    - 3 workouts over 2 weeks or every 5 days (program is aimed at back and the rest of the body organised around your back days)

    - 2 workouts in 1 day (tho i think you will have a hard time finding many ppl that would recommend this)

    But all in all, just make sure you are doing the basic compound moves (deads, chins & rows), that your diet is spot on and most importantly have patience, good things will come.

    Peace

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    Bro Scientist NYC BIG MIKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crash2226 View Post
    After a year of training, I am still in the gray area of back training.
    My back is forming nicely, BUT, I want more width and thickness.

    After being a FAITHFUL MD reader I have come to a cross roads, here is my dilemia do most readers and experts. . . .

    A - just do 1 hard training session mixing width and thickness . . . ex: 7 exercises varying the types

    OR

    B - do a morning workout for Width ONLY and then an evening workout for Thickness ONLY

    HELP HELP HELP!!!

    Thanx
    Kevin

    You've only been training a year. Give it time. Back 101: Pulldowns for width, rows for thickness.

    NYC BIG MIKE

  4. #4

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    I agree with Mike. Patience over time = success. Once a week for back. Lift heavy...9 sets max (3 exercises x 3 sets) Basic moves. Lots of Protein is important for growth....2 grams/lb of bodyweight.

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    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Heres the ticket.

    Wide Grip Pulldowns.... 4x12to15
    Seated Rows... 3x12to15
    Close Grip Pulldown.... 3x12to15
    Bent Over Wide Grip Row..... 3x12to15
    Wide Grip Slight Sumo Deads..... 3x12
    One Arm Row to weight belt ....3x12to15
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
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    Bro Scientist NYC BIG MIKE's Avatar
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    Here's my ticket.......

    Wide Grip Weighted Pull Ups 3 x 8
    One Arm Rows L/R 3 x 6
    Close Grip Weighted Pull Ups 3 x 8
    Bent Over Rows 3 x 8
    One Arm Pulldowns L/R 3 x 8
    Deadlifts 3 x 10
    Shrugs 3 x 10

    NYC BIG MIKE

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    Beach Body crash2226's Avatar
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    << One Arm Row to weight belt ....3x12to15>>

    One arm row to weight belt?? I've been doing one arms rows to the rib cage area.

    Kevin

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYC BIG MIKE View Post
    Here's my ticket.......

    Wide Grip Weighted Pull Ups 3 x 8
    One Arm Rows L/R 3 x 6
    Close Grip Weighted Pull Ups 3 x 8
    Bent Over Rows 3 x 8
    One Arm Pulldowns L/R 3 x 8
    Deadlifts 3 x 10
    Shrugs 3 x 10

    NYC BIG MIKE
    Mike's got it. You want size in the back? Gotta lift HEAVY! Not the girly routine of any weight that allows you to do more than 10 reps.....

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    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esplendido View Post
    Mike's got it. You want size in the back? Gotta lift HEAVY! Not the girly routine of any weight that allows you to do more than 10 reps.....
    Actually thats incorrect. Because of the type of fiber that exists within the back you must use explosive initial contractions with GREAT force but do it for more of a length of time. You can fail at 8 but if you dont continue with a drop set or rest pause there will NOT be enough duration of contraction.

    I'm not bringing dugs into the equation but again my advice is for the DRUG FREE bodybuilder.

    Duplicate the action of the fiber.
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  10. #10
    Bro Scientist NYC BIG MIKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    Actually thats incorrect. Because of the type of fiber that exists within the back you must use explosive initial contractions with GREAT force but do it for more of a length of time. You can fail at 8 but if you dont continue with a drop set or rest pause there will NOT be enough duration of contraction.

    I'm not bringing dugs into the equation but again my advice is for the DRUG FREE bodybuilder.

    Duplicate the action of the fiber.

    Slow twitch fibers fatigue before fast twitch every time. So I'm hitting all fiber types my friend. To each his own. Works great for me. Drug free may indeed be different, you'd know from experience better than I would.

    NYC BIG MIKE

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    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYC BIG MIKE View Post
    Slow twitch fibers fatigue before fast twitch every time. So I'm hitting all fiber types my friend. To each his own. Works great for me. Drug free may indeed be different, you'd know from experience better than I would.

    NYC BIG MIKE

    Well not really because Fast twitch fibers explode quickly for short bursts where slow twitch fibers have endurance capabilities. The back is made up of much more Fast twitch than slow twitch so explosive bursts will activate greater amounts of fibers. This is all explained better in the fiber type training thread.

    Let me ask you this. What do you think would happen if you did your 8 reps but instead of calling it quits you allowed ATP to regenerate and did 3 to 5 more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    Well not really because Fast twitch fibers explode quickly for short bursts where slow twitch fibers have endurance capabilities. The back is made up of much more Fast twitch than slow twitch so explosive bursts will activate greater amounts of fibers. This is all explained better in the fiber type training thread.

    Let me ask you this. What do you think would happen if you did your 8 reps but instead of calling it quits you allowed ATP to regenerate and did 3 to 5 more?

    Slow twitch always fails before fast twitch as they are the first to engage. It's a physiological fact. For me personally, I"ve always got better results using a 6 to 8 rep protocol. Again, to each his own.


    NYC BIG MIKE

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    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    My suggestion to anyone interested in understanding the human body better is to take some simple anatomy classes at a local college.
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
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    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYC BIG MIKE View Post
    Slow twitch always fails before fast twitch as they are the first to engage. It's a physiological fact. For me personally, I"ve always got better results using a 6 to 8 rep protocol. Again, to each his own.


    NYC BIG MIKE
    So rest pausing 3 to 5 more wont create a greater duration of contraction, resulting in more fibers being activated?


    Slow twitch fibers are not even engaged if the exercise is done in an explosive motion. I think you are slghtly confused how fibers activate.

    Punching someone with great force= Fast twitch fiber firing
    Pushing against a wall= Slow twitch fibers Firing.

    Has nothing to do with first fibers firing but how you activate them.

    Hope this helps explain better.
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
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  15. #15
    Bro Scientist NYC BIG MIKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    So rest pausing 3 to 5 more wont create a greater duration of contraction, resulting in more fibers being activated?


    Slow twitch fibers are not even engaged if the exercise is done in an explosive motion. I think you are slghtly confused how fibers activate.

    Punching someone with great force= Fast twitch fiber firing
    Pushing against a wall= Slow twitch fibers Firing.

    Has nothing to do with first fibers firing but how you activate them.

    Hope this helps explain better.

    Think both concentric and eccentric. I'm hardly confused. I have a BS and an MS in Ex. Phys. Yes, rest/pause has it's merits, but when in "rest" mode you are recovering a bit, it's a great overload technique but that's not the issue here.


    NYC BIG MIKE

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    So rest pausing 3 to 5 more wont create a greater duration of contraction, resulting in more fibers being activated?


    Slow twitch fibers are not even engaged if the exercise is done in an explosive motion. I think you are slghtly confused how fibers activate.

    Punching someone with great force= Fast twitch fiber firing
    Pushing against a wall= Slow twitch fibers Firing.

    Has nothing to do with first fibers firing but how you activate them.

    Hope this helps explain better.
    I admire your conviction on being natural, but natural or not, you train the muscle the same way to get size. No disrespect, but if that's you in your avatar, you're very cut but your back isn't very wide or thick. My chest measures 56" in contest shape and my waist 35" at 6'-4". I think the heavy routine works very well for mass on back. In fact, it works very well for every muscle group.

    Truth be told, genetics probably play a larger role with everything else being even.

  17. #17
    Bro Scientist NYC BIG MIKE's Avatar
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    Fast And Slow Muscle Fibers

    Stretching FAQ

    Subjects > Health > Stretching > Stretching FAQ

    Subject: 1.2.2 - Fast and Slow Muscle Fibers

    The energy which produces the calcium flow in the muscle fibers comes from "mitochondria", the part of the muscle cell that converts glucose (blood sugar) into energy. Different types of muscle fibers have different amounts of mitochondria. The more mitochondria in a muscle fiber, the more energy it is able to produce. Muscle fibers are categorized into "slow-twitch fibers" and "fast-twitch fibers". Slow-twitch fibers (also called "Type 1 muscle fibers") are slow to contract, but they are also very slow to fatigue. Fast-twitch fibers are very quick to contract and come in two varieties: "Type 2A muscle fibers" which fatigue at an intermediate rate, and "Type 2B muscle fibers" which fatigue very quickly. The main reason the slow-twitch fibers are slow to fatigue is that they contain more mitochondria than fast-twitch fibers and hence are able to produce more energy. Slow-twitch fibers are also smaller in diameter than fast-twitch fibers and have increased capillary blood flow around them. Because they have a smaller diameter and an increased blood flow, the slow-twitch fibers are able to deliver more oxygen and remove more waste products from the muscle fibers (which decreases their "fatigability").
    These three muscle fiber types (Types 1, 2A, and 2B) are contained in all muscles in varying amounts. Muscles that need to be contracted much of the time (like the heart) have a greater number of Type 1 (slow) fibers. According to `HFLTA':

    When a muscle begins to contract, primarily Type 1 fibers are activated first, then Type 2A, then 2B. This sequence of fiber recruitment allows very delicate and finely tuned muscle responses to brain commands. It also makes Type 2B fibers difficult to train; most of the Type 1 and 2A fibers have to be activated already before a large percentage of the 2B fibers participate.
    `HFLTA' further states that the the best way to remember the difference between muscles with predominantly slow-twitch fibers and muscles with predominantly fast-twitch fibers is to think of "white meat" and "dark meat". Dark meat is dark because it has a greater number of slow-twitch muscle fibers and hence a greater number of mitochondria, which are dark. White meat consists mostly of muscle fibers which are at rest much of the time but are frequently called on to engage in brief bouts of intense activity. This muscle tissue can contract quickly but is fast to fatigue and slow to recover. White meat is lighter in color than dark meat because it contains fewer mitochondria.



    NYC BIG MIKE

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