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Thread: GDA's

  1. #52
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    glucose disposal agent

    I asked only because I was thinking that maybe GDAs can be used as a further precaution during low-carbing?

    Perhaps I am confused. Actually, I am. I'm just here to learn.
    So if they aid in disposing of glucose then what would high or low carbs matter. They are an AID in bringing glycogen into the muscle at a better rate.
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
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  2. #53

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    Thanks for all the help guys. Im going to re-read the large thread regarding GDA's later. I just ordered 2 packages from nattynutrition (thanks Scooby) because it only requires one pill, so I should have them soon. What is the proper protocol for taking these (with what meals, how often, before/after/or during a meal)? Im sure this is also outlined many other places on these forums. Any help would be amazing. Thanks so much to everyone...im curious to see what effects they will have on my physique.

    From the beginner's POV, I appreciate all the help from such experienced BBers.

  3. #54

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    Thanks for all the help guys. Im going to re-read the large thread regarding GDA's later. I just ordered 2 packages from nattynutrition (thanks Scooby) because it only requires one pill, so I should have them soon. What is the proper protocol for taking these (with what meals, how often, before/after/or during a meal)? Im sure this is also outlined many other places on these forums. Any help would be amazing. Thanks so much to everyone...im curious to see what effects they will have on my physique.

    From the beginner's POV, I appreciate all the help from such experienced BBers. Keep

  4. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    So if they aid in disposing of glucose then what would high or low carbs matter. They are an AID in bringing glycogen into the muscle at a better rate.
    Tipsta, forgive me for my ignorance/laziness.

    let me read this thread in it's detail/entirety and I will send you a PM if you have the patience/time to answer my questions.

    You've been of great help so far though.

  5. #56
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    Tipsta, forgive me for my ignorance/laziness.

    let me read this thread in it's detail/entirety and I will send you a PM if you have the patience/time to answer my questions.

    You've been of great help so far though.

    Not at all lazy. I just see that this is something that is being taken way out of text. They just aid insulin in doing its job better with less effort. Thats it. Pretty simple.
    In fact you will find that youll need to increase your carb intake once these supps are part of you arsenal.
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
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  6. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss View Post
    I've been reading the Boards, and I'm confused about GDA's. Are we talking GDA's such as ALA, Vanydal, and Chromium, or are we talking insulin, and glucophage? Also, what is the best protocal for these,pre-contest, any help whould be great.
    It depends on who you asked. There die hard veiws on this.

    Some say using Vanadyl and Chromium is the ticket.

    Others say ALA ( Lipoic Acid ) is the best because it increases the insulin stimulated glucose uptake into the muscle cell.

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne25.htm

  7. #58

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    Tipsta,

    Over in Performance Nutrition I see that you've advocated taking Chromium Polynicotinate (200 mcg) and Vanadyl Sulfate (10 mg) to start, with meals containing high GI carbs (Meals 1,2,4,6 in YOUR case).

    You've also suggested taking GDA's before bed, and upon wakening if one wanted to do morning cardio. Purpose here being to drop blood sugar so the body burns fat.

    From my reading, I understand now that GDA's simply help with the body's process of glycogen storage WITHOUT insulin spikes, and therefore this equates to less fat gains.

    You've also mentioned that GDA's are a means to stay lean, or lean out, but when used to GROW/ADD MASS, it SLOWS the process.

    Ok.

    Now, my questions are:

    If one is dieting for a show (specifically using a Keto-style diet like Dave Palumbo's where insulin is pretty much not a factor since all you are eating is protein + fat) do GDAs even have a place? Perhaps just taken before bed, and in the AM prior to cardio? Or would taking GDAs be a waste in addition to being a danger, since your blood sugar would already be low on such a diet?

    Also, relating to Dave's diet- some have advocated taking GDAs with the cheat meal. Wouldn't this defy the purpose of the cheat? Since the weekly meal is to refill depleted stores? Or would taking GDAs simply prevent any possible spiking (and subsequent fat cell storage) while still refilling intramuscular glycogen? Basically speaking, should one take GDAs with the carb load?

    Also, post-contest, I know many people struggle with a rebound when re-introducing carbs after a Keto diet. This is where GDAs would help, am I correct?

    If one were to re-introduce carbs at say, Breakfast and PWO, would taking GDAs 20 min before these two meals be beneficial? Or would it defy the purpose of re-introducing carbs to get the body inslin sensitive once again?

    Basically, I'd like to know how to use GDAs DURING a Keto-contest prep and AFTER a Keto-contest prep.

  8. #59

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    Relating to my post above, I dug this quote from the massive GDA thread where Tipsta says in Post 533:

    "Another bad thing with these keto type diets is the body adapts quite easily to low carbs and forgets how to handle a glycogen load properly and causes most to have insulin sensitivity issues thereafter. People like me that eat large amounts of carbs have the opposite problem. When we eat just a slight bit less than normal it becomes an immediate deficit and we lose weight quickly. I'd rather have a problem keeping weight than losing weight but thats just me."

    This is where I'd like to know if GDAs can help.

  9. #60
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    Tipsta,

    Over in Performance Nutrition I see that you've advocated taking Chromium Polynicotinate (200 mcg) and Vanadyl Sulfate (10 mg) to start, with meals containing high GI carbs (Meals 1,2,4,6 in YOUR case).

    You've also suggested taking GDA's before bed, and upon wakening if one wanted to do morning cardio. Purpose here being to drop blood sugar so the body burns fat.

    From my reading, I understand now that GDA's simply help with the body's process of glycogen storage WITHOUT insulin spikes, and therefore this equates to less fat gains.

    You've also mentioned that GDA's are a means to stay lean, or lean out, but when used to GROW/ADD MASS, it SLOWS the process.

    Ok.

    Now, my questions are:

    If one is dieting for a show (specifically using a Keto-style diet like Dave Palumbo's where insulin is pretty much not a factor since all you are eating is protein + fat) do GDAs even have a place? Perhaps just taken before bed, and in the AM prior to cardio? Or would taking GDAs be a waste in addition to being a danger, since your blood sugar would already be low on such a diet?

    Also, relating to Dave's diet- some have advocated taking GDAs with the cheat meal. Wouldn't this defy the purpose of the cheat? Since the weekly meal is to refill depleted stores? Or would taking GDAs simply prevent any possible spiking (and subsequent fat cell storage) while still refilling intramuscular glycogen? Basically speaking, should one take GDAs with the carb load?

    Also, post-contest, I know many people struggle with a rebound when re-introducing carbs after a Keto diet. This is where GDAs would help, am I correct?

    If one were to re-introduce carbs at say, Breakfast and PWO, would taking GDAs 20 min before these two meals be beneficial? Or would it defy the purpose of re-introducing carbs to get the body inslin sensitive once again?

    Basically, I'd like to know how to use GDAs DURING a Keto-contest prep and AFTER a Keto-contest prep.

    Insulin is present up to 6 hours following a meal and the reason I suggest taking before bed is yes, to lower blood sugar but more importantly it allows for insulin to be not present at a quicker rate since its job is now completely done if that makes sense. The reason I suggest upon rising is again to lower sugars but not so much for insulin purposes as its been many hours since its been called upon but to give us a temporary drop in available sugars to tap into fat as a fuel at a greater degree. Keep in mind its only short lived the lowered levels as the liver will bring it right back to normal. Now how effective are these additional protocols to taking 4 times daily with meals? I dont know but it makes sense to me on paper as I understand insulin and its functions quite well and if all it does is give me 1% more its worth it since competing to win is my goal.

    Now I may have misposted what I meant about offseason use. They will not slow down the process but they will allow you to consume much larger amounts of carbs with the same weight gain since water retention and fat storage is lessened. Most will not have the ability to consume such large amounts of food including myself at times and thats where I found the issue to be.

    No place in a Keto diet.

    It would not defy the purpose of the cheat meal but protect you from the ridiculous insulin spike you will cause. However keep in mind is is physically impossible to store any measurable amount of fat from just one weekly sitting.

    They help whenever carbs are consumed.

    Keep in mind they are just minerals/nutrients in food and work best with your food. Now I dont know where this 20 minute thing keeps coming from. At first bite or last bite or during but WITH your food.
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
    Co-Promoter of the NPC "Royal Palm Classic"

  10. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    Insulin is present up to 6 hours following a meal and the reason I suggest taking before bed is yes, to lower blood sugar but more importantly it allows for insulin to be not present at a quicker rate since its job is now completely done if that makes sense. The reason I suggest upon rising is again to lower sugars but not so much for insulin purposes as its been many hours since its been called upon but to give us a temporary drop in available sugars to tap into fat as a fuel at a greater degree. Keep in mind its only short lived the lowered levels as the liver will bring it right back to normal. Now how effective are these additional protocols to taking 4 times daily with meals? I dont know but it makes sense to me on paper as I understand insulin and its functions quite well and if all it does is give me 1% more its worth it since competing to win is my goal.

    Now I may have misposted what I meant about offseason use. They will not slow down the process but they will allow you to consume much larger amounts of carbs with the same weight gain since water retention and fat storage is lessened. Most will not have the ability to consume such large amounts of food including myself at times and thats where I found the issue to be.

    No place in a Keto diet.

    It would not defy the purpose of the cheat meal but protect you from the ridiculous insulin spike you will cause. However keep in mind is is physically impossible to store any measurable amount of fat from just one weekly sitting.

    They help whenever carbs are consumed.

    Keep in mind they are just minerals/nutrients in food and work best with your food. Now I dont know where this 20 minute thing keeps coming from. At first bite or last bite or during but WITH your food.
    Wow, thanks!

    I understand now...I think I do at least.

    No place on Keto because no carbs. No carbs = no insulin, well maybe a tiny bit in response to protein, but negligible and thus GDAs would put you into a hypo coma.

    I see now that GDAs help on LOW carb diets, to do what insulin would normally do- put nutrients into muscle cells. While dieting LOW carb, GDAs COULD prevent muscle loss via this property.

    When re-introducing carbs after a KETO diet, GDAs can help by reducing the amount of insulin released, while still helping muscles refill, therefore reducing the rebound/bloat that often comes post-Keto.

    Just a quick confirmation please? Then, I shall be on my way...

    BTW Tip, what is your opinion on my BF%? I have a thread below with lotsa pics...

  11. #62
    Bro Scientist Tipsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    Wow, thanks!

    I understand now...I think I do at least.

    No place on Keto because no carbs. No carbs = no insulin, well maybe a tiny bit in response to protein, but negligible and thus GDAs would put you into a hypo coma.

    I see now that GDAs help on LOW carb diets, to do what insulin would normally do- put nutrients into muscle cells. While dieting LOW carb, GDAs COULD prevent muscle loss via this property.

    When re-introducing carbs after a KETO diet, GDAs can help by reducing the amount of insulin released, while still helping muscles refill, therefore reducing the rebound/bloat that often comes post-Keto.

    Just a quick confirmation please? Then, I shall be on my way...

    BTW Tip, what is your opinion on my BF%? I have a thread below with lotsa pics...
    Bygolly you've got it.

    Wheres the thread?
    TRAIN HARD AND WIN EASY!!!
    Co-Promoter of the NPC "Royal Palm Classic"

  12. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipsta View Post
    Bygolly you've got it.

    Wheres the thread?
    http://72.37.217.214/showthread.php?t=34850

  13. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    Wow, thanks!

    I understand now...I think I do at least.

    No place on Keto because no carbs. No carbs = no insulin, well maybe a tiny bit in response to protein, but negligible and thus GDAs would put you into a hypo coma.

    I see now that GDAs help on LOW carb diets, to do what insulin would normally do- put nutrients into muscle cells. While dieting LOW carb, GDAs COULD prevent muscle loss via this property.

    When re-introducing carbs after a KETO diet, GDAs can help by reducing the amount of insulin released, while still helping muscles refill, therefore reducing the rebound/bloat that often comes post-Keto.

    Just a quick confirmation please? Then, I shall be on my way...

    BTW Tip, what is your opinion on my BF%? I have a thread below with lotsa pics...
    this is where i am fascinated, and plan on pushing the limits someday or reading up on those who have. pure ketogenic dieting during the week to deplete every muscle properly, with either a whole day of eating carbs or two days eating carbs (ala Duchaine). GDA's would be mandatory here, esp. when it came to getting you back into ketosis quickly after supersaturating. can you imagine getting the fat burning properties of a keto diet, coupled with the supercompensation for 2 days by use of GDA's?

    mark- have you tried Duchaines protocol? (7 day body-opus). i know you have said you dont like it, and i am sure there is a good reason for that. i also know you have been damn close to ketosis (ketones on breath i believe you said) while ingesting 300 carbs a day by use of GDA's. so, i know you have pushed the limits yourself. is that stuff somewhere on this site you have posted so we can read about it?

  14. #65
    Bro Scientist NYC BIG MIKE's Avatar
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    Excellent information Tipsta.

    NYC BIG MIKE

  15. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYC BIG MIKE View Post
    Excellent information Tipsta.

    NYC BIG MIKE
    Agreed. if we can get Tip to get off his vacationing ass and address this stuff even further, beyond even his GDA thread in the Performance section, we will all learn quite a bit more here.

    I know he will have some interesting things to say about supersaturation and keto............(I know he's going to yell at me! LOL!)

  16. #67
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    Supersaturation as it relates to the use of GDA's would be a cool topic of discussion to embark upon. Tipsta?


    NYC BIG MIKE

  17. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by johngorman View Post
    this is where i am fascinated, and plan on pushing the limits someday or reading up on those who have. pure ketogenic dieting during the week to deplete every muscle properly, with either a whole day of eating carbs or two days eating carbs (ala Duchaine). GDA's would be mandatory here, esp. when it came to getting you back into ketosis quickly after supersaturating. can you imagine getting the fat burning properties of a keto diet, coupled with the supercompensation for 2 days by use of GDA's?

    mark- have you tried Duchaines protocol? (7 day body-opus). i know you have said you dont like it, and i am sure there is a good reason for that. i also know you have been damn close to ketosis (ketones on breath i believe you said) while ingesting 300 carbs a day by use of GDA's. so, i know you have pushed the limits yourself. is that stuff somewhere on this site you have posted so we can read about it?
    This is where I think TIMING becomes very important (from what I've read) as well as experimentation with dosages.

    Perhaps you can experiment with 200 mcg of Chrom/10 mcg of Vanadyl BEFORE and AFTER a refeed/cheat, and adjust dosing to the size of the meal and see how you respond.

    But yeah, GDAs would be very helpful here by doing 2 things (while on Keto and while refeeding on Keto):

    1. Refill glycogen stores without the need for too much insulin
    2. After the necessary refilling is done, you go back into Keto quicker

    But yeah, Tipsta? hehe.

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