Q and A with Seth Roberts (Author of ANABOLIC PHARMACOLOGY)

[Seth Roberts]

[quote=Blade_MyR;1572998]
2. I've seen studies pointing to Arimidex being more effective in reducing estrone levels, but not as effective against peripheral aromatase conversion into estradiol. Blood tests I've seen on 1mg/day of Arimidex with 600-1000mg/week testosterone in a couple of users showed estradiol levels to be 3-4x above the reference range. Whereas Exemestane/aromasin is more effective at peripheral conversion. Have you seen anything to support this, and if so - that would perhaps indicate Arimidex being more suited for nandrolone cycles and Exemestane for testosterone cycles?
quote]

After a little reading I found some support for what i was saying with regard to the affinity of testosterone and nandrolone for aromatase here (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...95662/PDFSTART). Also of note is that this paper as well as some others have shown aromatase to have preference for androstenedione over test. That leads me to believe that the higher doses of test may be too much for the dose of Arimidex. As far as exemestane, I am not seeing much showing a greater inhibition of peripheral conversion but it might make sense considering that exemestane is steroidal and might penetrate adipose more easily than nonsteroidal AI's. I do see several references showing exemestane to be less efficacious for reducing estradiol, estrone and estrone sulfate compared to arimidex and letrozole -- but these are all in women where peripheral conversion does not play as big a role as in men.

[Vivid04]

After a little reading I found some support for what i was saying with regard to the affinity of testosterone and nandrolone for aromatase here (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...95662/PDFSTART). Also of note is that this paper as well as some others have shown aromatase to have preference for androstenedione over test. That leads me to believe that the higher doses of test may be too much for the dose of Arimidex. As far as exemestane, I am not seeing much showing a greater inhibition of peripheral conversion but it might make sense considering that exemestane is steroidal and might penetrate adipose more easily than nonsteroidal AI's. I do see several references showing exemestane to be less efficacious for reducing estradiol, estrone and estrone sulfate compared to arimidex and letrozole -- but these are all in women where peripheral conversion does not play as big a role as in men.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with your topic exactly, but in the research I was doing this morning, I learned that Nolva usage alongside Letro/Arimidex reduced blood serum levels of the AI by 30%. Hence, gathering Nolva in conjunction with an AI reduces the effects. However, all the studies were again in postmenopausal women. We aren't women. :/ Damn! lol

[peytonchris]

off topic of whats being discusses, but seth, what is your opinion about using primo to create a large lean physique, is it effective, or would it be better to just stick with test, if money wasnt a concern, would primo be worth it say at a dose of around 800mg/wk

[Blade_MyR]

Thanks, that was very enlightening.

Wrt nandrolone vs. test - you mentioned in the book that estrone levels were higher with nandrolone, hence the use of Arimidex (if it is, indeed, better at that).

Is there anything that can or should be done about the high PR affinity of nandrolone or trenbolone, in your opinion? This would reduce the HPTA inhibition greatly, wouldn't it?

[Blade_MyR]

The only research I've done thus far has been on GHRP-6 and Hex.
Consensus seems to agree on Hex 200mcg/day and ~500mg GHRP-6/day.

However, many people agreed on the simultaneous use of insulin alongside GHRP-6 which according to my reading increased efficiency and IGF levels. But I refuse to touch insulin. What about GHRP-6 immediately after some type of high GI carb intake instead?

According to studies, the saturation dose of GHRH and GHRP-6 is 1mcg pr kg BW, so usually no more than 100mcg of each. This provides a synergistic effect. See this post:
[ame="http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=435300"]Professional Muscle[/ame]

Insulin would be used to resensitize the GH signaling pathways:
[ame="http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=464064"]Professional Muscle[/ame]


Full thread with FAQ and links to relevant posts on the first page: [ame="http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37381"]Professional Muscle[/ame]

[Vivid04]

According to studies, the saturation dose of GHRH and GHRP-6 is 1mcg pr kg BW, so usually no more than 100mcg of each. This provides a synergistic effect. See this post:
Professional Muscle

Insulin would be used to resensitize the GH signaling pathways:
Professional Muscle


Full thread with FAQ and links to relevant posts on the first page: Professional Muscle

Nice. Much lower than others recommended. Good Post!

[Blade_MyR]

Is there anything that can or should be done about the high PR affinity of nandrolone or trenbolone, in your opinion? This would reduce the HPTA inhibition greatly, wouldn't it?

Bumping this shamelessly...

Tren seems to be a strong PR-agonist, and you mentioned Anadrol as having anti-progestational effects - perhaps that makes them good to stack? In addition to Anadrol increasing CBG and cancelling out the anti-glucocorticoid activity of Tren (which elevates cortisol)...

Anavar seems to stack well with both Tren and Deca, but for those who have problems with joint pain, the Tren+Anavar both being potent GR-antagonists could spell trouble, yes?

The sides of Tren are known to be pretty harsh, so - thinking out loud here, how do you feel about this stack for an intermediate-advanced bodybuilder:

Weeks 1-9: Test Enanthate 250mg 2x/week
Week 10: Test Propionate 150mg EOD (taper)
Weeks 1-5: Tren Enanthate 250mg 2x/week - stopped here when sides usually start to present themselves, switching to:
Weeks 6-9: NPP 150mg EOD Joint pain be gone...(stopped a little earlier to allow Test Prop to taper).

Orals:
Weeks 1-3: Anavar 40mg/day
Weeks 4-5: Anadrol 50mg/day (to bind the cortisol from the previous Tren+Anavar usage)
Weeks 6-8: Dbol 40mg/day (stacks well with nandrolone)
Weeks 9-10: Anavar 50mg/day to finish off (optional, could be dropped for final taper).

Thoughts?

[Seth Roberts]

off topic of whats being discusses, but seth, what is your opinion about using primo to create a large lean physique, is it effective, or would it be better to just stick with test, if money wasnt a concern, would primo be worth it say at a dose of around 800mg/wk

I probaby wouldn't use primo alone for this purpose. If one had a choice between just primo or just test, I would go with just test.

[Seth Roberts]

According to studies, the saturation dose of GHRH and GHRP-6 is 1mcg pr kg BW, so usually no more than 100mcg of each. This provides a synergistic effect. See this post:
Professional Muscle

Insulin would be used to resensitize the GH signaling pathways:
Professional Muscle


Full thread with FAQ and links to relevant posts on the first page: Professional Muscle

This^ and I have seen people dosing CJC at 3 mg per day or even twice daily when it was designed to be long acting and should probably be taken at a dose of 3 or 6 mg once or twice per week.

[Seth Roberts]

Bumping this shamelessly...

Tren seems to be a strong PR-agonist, and you mentioned Anadrol as having anti-progestational effects - perhaps that makes them good to stack? In addition to Anadrol increasing CBG and cancelling out the anti-glucocorticoid activity of Tren (which elevates cortisol)...

Anavar seems to stack well with both Tren and Deca, but for those who have problems with joint pain, the Tren+Anavar both being potent GR-antagonists could spell trouble, yes?

The sides of Tren are known to be pretty harsh, so - thinking out loud here, how do you feel about this stack for an intermediate-advanced bodybuilder:

Weeks 1-9: Test Enanthate 250mg 2x/week
Week 10: Test Propionate 150mg EOD (taper)
Weeks 1-5: Tren Enanthate 250mg 2x/week - stopped here when sides usually start to present themselves, switching to:
Weeks 6-9: NPP 150mg EOD Joint pain be gone...(stopped a little earlier to allow Test Prop to taper).

Orals:
Weeks 1-3: Anavar 40mg/day
Weeks 4-5: Anadrol 50mg/day (to bind the cortisol from the previous Tren+Anavar usage)
Weeks 6-8: Dbol 40mg/day (stacks well with nandrolone)
Weeks 9-10: Anavar 50mg/day to finish off (optional, could be dropped for final taper).

Thoughts?

You definitely get it. The progestational/antiprogestational effects of AAS have not been thoroughly explored, but anadrol/tren/test stacks have been very popular and this could be why. The only thing I would differ with here is that an increase in CBG will reduce nonprotein bound cortisol which should reduce glucocorticoid signalling. The only caveat is that we know that CBG has a cell surface receptor, we just don't know yet exactly what it does. So, tren seems to have antiglucocorticoid effects (probably at the receptor level) which likely results in an increase in cortisol production and the increase in CBG by anadrol will help to bind it up. Tren and anavar do seem to have direct antiglucocorticoid effects but I have not seen or heard of anyone having joint problems with them maybe because few use them alone of in combination without something else added in.

I am not a big fan of hitting the enanthates twice per week. The fewer the injections, the less chance for injection site reactions and scar tissue build up and I don't see much benefit from the increased frequency -- I actually see more sides. It also seems like too much jumping around with the orals but I see what you are attempting. I just worry that you might not be using any of them long enough to see the benefits you are going for.

[Gabri]

Hey Seth, great are your answers!
What do you think about efedra-----adrenal exhaustion-----progesterone output?

[Blade_MyR]

Hmmmm...all good points there. One might as well go with Anavar throughout or Dbol for the final 4 weeks. The nandrolone should reduce the cortisol from the first 4 weeks of Trenbolone.

I'm a little stumped on the injection frequency vs esters vs side-effects issue, though. Anecdotal reports and blood tests seem to indicate a lower incidence of bloating and aromatization (I've seen lower estradiol levels) with more frequent, and thus more stable levels. However, some also report a lower rate of aromatization with shorter esters with their higher peak amplitude levels and lower troughs.

Someone posting on ProM as Emeric Delczeg claims that low dosage ED injections of testosterone enanthate for TRT showed lower estradiol levels than previous once-a-week injections. He quoted blood test values to illustrate this, but I can't find the post right now. People on TRT also report more mood swings and water retention when injection frequency is weekly or even bi-weekly (with cypionate) - then feeling more "stable" once they switch to 2x/week dosing or more...

Hard to reconcile, but as most systems in the body respond better to pulsation than chronically high levels it would stand to reason that this goes for AAS as well.

[Blade_MyR]

Found a couple of his posts:

Here are my test results:

Date: 08/23/07
one injection 300mg per week (test a) Test Total - 1291 ng/dl
Test Free - 534.5 ng/dl
HDL 20.5 REF 25.0 -75.0 MG/DL


Date: 07/6/08
4 injections of 50mg per week Total - 2031 ng/dl
Free - 574.6 ng/dl

HDL 47.5 REF 25.0 - 75.0

I hed blood test 3 days after injection, and no blood test before.

I did ask for his estradiol levels but didn't get a response. The high HDL level with more frequent injections would indicate higher aromatization, though...

[mhb3003]

Hey steth,
this time really i miss you
i have q
do you think using anadrol50 for 6 week in 150mg dose ED then switched after that by D-ol 60mg daily for another 6 week is liver toxic ?

[Seth Roberts]

Hey Seth, great are your answers!
What do you think about efedra-----adrenal exhaustion-----progesterone output?

Adrenal exhaustion, yes with prolonged use. Progesterone output -- probably insignificant but I would need to do some reading to be sure.

[Seth Roberts]

Found a couple of his posts:



I did ask for his estradiol levels but didn't get a response. The high HDL level with more frequent injections would indicate higher aromatization, though...

I think your conclusion of higher estrogen levels are right on since higher androgen levels would lead to lower HDL levels unless there was significant conversion to estrogen. It also supports my assertion that more frequent injections will result in higher plasma levels -in this case, 200 mg dosed daily produced double the total plasma level of testosterone compared to 300 mg once per week. in reality, optimal dosing of enanthate would be every 5 days whereas cyp would be 7 days but I generally go with 7 days for each of them. Whatever minimal benefit exists (if any), doubling the amount of injections doesn't seem like a fair trade off. Now, if you are shooting for a very high plasma level then more frequent dosing is a must. For example if one were doing a gram per week of test, I wouldn't do it all in one injection or all on the same day.

[Blade_MyR]

Does this go for different AAS as well? I.e. Test Enanthate + Tren Enanthate as in the example above - would you dose it all on one day or separate injections by 2-3 days (while still only injecting each every 5-7 days)?

With higher peak and average plasma levels comes more sides, but do we know whether this is optimal for AR activation and muscle/strength gains? If we can get higher levels with lower, more frequent dosing - doesn't the above imply that e.g. 150mg (since 200mg gave higher plasma levels) split into ED injections would seem to be equal to 300mg injected weekly?