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Thread: 2010 Arnold Prejudging Comparisons Video: Armchair judges, this is for you!

  1. #52

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    i def think phil should have won, but there is to much subjective bs involved. kai did have way freakier legs though in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Arnold View Post
    I think this Judge converstaion clearly gives us our answer by the LACK of answers.

    It's funny that the Judge told you Kai was the clear winner, but that same Judge scored Heath higher in pre-judging and then refused to give you an answer on how Phil lost a 3 point lead when you asked him. LOL. I think that explains everything.

    You see, these Judges know damn well that if they told you exactly why and how they awarded points in the posddown (because it's always different from show to show depending on how someone feels), that you would be pissed and wouldn't think it was very fair. Instead, they choose not to answer at all.

    Hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
    The head judge and the other judge I spoke about are 2 different people. The 2nd judge didnt judge the show, he was just giving his opinion of how itcould habe happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MsGuns View Post
    The head judge and the other judge I spoke about are 2 different people. The 2nd judge didnt judge the show, he was just giving his opinion of how itcould habe happened.

    Ok, thans for clarifying that. Also, thanks for posting what he said, although you do have to admit, he didn't do very much to answer any of the questions everyone has. LOL.

    I do believe that the very large majority of these Judges do have good intentions and try to judge as fairly as possinble, so it's not really the Judges I have a problem with, but the judging system itself.

    There is no denying that our judging system needs a drastic overhaul.

  4. #55
    Drexel Long - NGA, FAME and IFPA Pro MsGuns's Avatar
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    The judges really dont owe anyone explainations....you either take as is or leave it. Complainin about it online aint goin to change anything...lol
    KAI is the 2009 & 2010 WINNER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MsGuns View Post
    The judges really dont owe anyone explainations....you either take as is or leave it. Complainin about it online aint goin to change anything...lol
    KAI is the 2009 & 2010 WINNER!
    Sure they owe the people who paid to see the contest! Phil Was Big,Full and much improved! The IFBB is all about Freaky size and Improvements and Phil Fits This Category!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mayor of bodybuilding View Post
    Sure they owe the people who paid to see the contest! Phil Was Big,Full and much improved! The IFBB is all about Freaky size and Improvements and Phil Fits This Category!


    I agree 100%. This is not a dictatorship and the fans have damn right to know how and why decisions are being made, so the Judges very much do owe us an explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMasko View Post
    Let me ask you this....what was your top 4..

    If your top 4 is Dex,Phil,Kai and Branch (not in that particular order) then how does the judging system need a "Drastic" overhaul? I could see if Phil got 6th or something stupid like that I just dont see were it needs a drastic overhaul if you disagree with 1 or 2 placings were you would just flip flop them...seems like a pretty good system dont ya think?
    No!

    Just because the top 4 athletes landed somewhere in the top 4, it doesn't mean the judging system is sound. If only 1 athlete gets a royal screwing, it isn't OK.

    The fact is, our judging system is the ONLY subjective judging system in the wolrd that is set-up in a way that causes unnecessary confusion and which has no clear guidelines or precedures for physique judging across the board. Every show is different, there is no accountability, there are loopholes, the competitors are often judged outside of their physiques and there are rarely explanations given for all the seeming contradictory results and placements from one show to the next, the same athletes are re-judged over and over again, scores are constantly adjusted after thorough judging has taken place, etc. I could go on for a while.

    Ask these pros if they know exactly what they need to do to win each show and see what they say? Ask them if they know specifcally what each panel of judges is looking for at each show and see what they say. They won't be able to say, only take a guess.

    The thing is, many of the problems we now face could easily be fixed or greatly improved. With subjective judging, you need to have in place as much consistency as you can in the areas that are able to be consistent. Throwing constant change and confusion into not only the subjective aspect of the judging by it's very nature, but also refusing to address and change the things that can be fixed and made stable just doesn't make sense. This has been being said for years by fans and pro BB'rs alike.

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    Phil should fill out a police report because he got fucking robbed. Phil's cocky attitude started annoying me and Kai at the 09 Arnold was fucking crazy, I became a fan of mr. Greene ...but Phil blew his ass back to Brooklyn this time. That was total bullshitfFor once we have the score cards as proof, it's not a conspiracy it's fuckjng evident .. And I made this a big ass run on sentence on purpose. Worse screwing than the USA gymnastic team in beijing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reloaded View Post
    Phil should fill out a police report because he got fucking robbed. Phil's cocky attitude started annoying me and Kai at the 09 Arnold was fucking crazy, I became a fan of mr. Greene ...but Phil blew his ass back to Brooklyn this time. That was total bullshitfFor once we have the score cards as proof, it's not a conspiracy it's fuckjng evident .. And I made this a big ass run on sentence on purpose. Worse screwing than the USA gymnastic team in beijing
    Phil improved his chest and back and was much bigger than the other guys! Thew olympia will be very kind to Phil this year,he just has to rip up his new mass and he will do very well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mayor of bodybuilding View Post
    Sure they owe the people who paid to see the contest! Phil Was Big,Full and much improved! The IFBB is all about Freaky size and Improvements and Phil Fits This Category!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Arnold View Post
    I agree 100%. This is not a dictatorship and the fans have damn right to know how and why decisions are being made, so the Judges very much do owe us an explanation.
    Let me know when yall get one...lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob9439 View Post
    u said it yourself bro kai had him on a few front and rear lats are power moves big scorers if u dominate someone in those areas like they say he who has the best back wins
    I disagree with that. Whoever has the fewest weakness that day on stage and has the most complete/balanced physique top to bottom should win.

    Kai was good, but he just didn't have the conditioning everywhere. I mean his quads/hams are razor ripped no matter what, just b/c his quads were on doesn't mean his abs were sharp, or his arms from the front had insane separation.

    Phil was ripped and showed detail, dryness and great condition in every muscle group from every pose.

    If mass and "back shots" were all that counted, why even have the other rounds (symmetry round which should really be called proportion round) and have the other mandatory poses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtimmy View Post
    does anyone think that phil needed some oil and darker color?
    Hell yes, and he has to be way more professional up there and stop rubbing himself down between every fuckin pose. Man is that annoying and it detracts from his stage presence and confidence IMO. And I HATE his goof faces, wtf is that? it looks stupid.

  13. #64

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    I wasn't there, so i can't tell you, but from what I've heard, the physiques can look a lot different from watching it at home or sitting in the audience. Further more, the physiques could look different depending on where in the audience you are sitting. Just compare this video to the webcast video. Its like night and day.

  14. #65

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    Phil looked great at the prejudging and good at the night show! Kai looked great at the night show and good at prejudging, factor in things like leg details and thickness and Kai wins. Kai beat Dexter again in Australia too!
    Last edited by skorpyo; March 14th, 2010 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Typo

  15. #66

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    mike arnold you seem knowledgeable enough but i do believe you dislike Kai, it comes across in your writing. Additionally, i think you've got a bit of a man crush on Phil.

    Bottom line, 09-10 Kai won both shows and beat Heath in all of the shows including the O.

    Phil has amazing arms and has done wonders improving his back, he's an amazing BB.

    Kai's condition hasn't been as perfect because he's still growing/evolving. that being said, most top guys are evolving minus Dexter who's standing still. Kai will retain his shape but he's been improving his chest, delts, tris...as he contines w/ mid back thickness and increasing the height of his traps he'll settle in and nail down the condition again.

    his mass + zippered quads, feathered inner lats + his being Kai just makes phil what he is next to Kai...not the main event.

    You cannot remedy insertion points (phil's flexed chest MM =narrow looking), + clavicles = narrow looking, the wheels aren't close.

    if Kai is winning the majority of the mandatory poses, guess what...he wins.

    With only a few posts on this site it's become apparent you think rather highly of yourself and your own opinions. others like myself have a different viewpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyruseven View Post
    mike arnold you seem knowledgeable enough but i do believe you dislike Kai
    True, but I have made it a point to attempt to undo my negative attitude toward him, as I don't feel to good about it.

    , it comes across in your writing. Additionally, i think you've got a bit of a man crush on Phil.
    False, I actually never even really liked Phil at all until what he showed us at the Arnold. If you had seen any of my posts prior to the Arnold, I never talked about Phil, other than if I was making critical comments.

    The fact is, Phil was awsome this year and he blew me away. The fact that I didn't particulary care for Kai made it that much easier to support Phil, although regardless of who I "like", I no doubt feel Phil was much better than kai on stage that day.

    Phil made me a fan at the Arnold and I now see Mr. Olympis written all over him. Not yet, but in a few years....after Jay retires.


    Bottom line, 09-10 Kai won both shows and beat Heath in all of the shows including the O.
    As you know, Phil was WAY off at the O', more so than Kai. Besides, the large majority opinion of this years Arnold was that Phil was better. I have a feeling that Phil is going to beat Kai this year at the O'. Kai may have defeated phil according to the Judges, but I believe Phil is the superior BB'r and it will be proven at this years O'.

    No one was expecting Phil to be so good and when that happens, the judges often times have to "adjust" to it and then they will place him higher at the next show. On the other hand, most expected Kai to be better at the Arnold...the judges included. I bet you a few of them are now questioning whether or not Kai should've won.


    Phil has amazing arms and has done wonders improving his back, he's an amazing BB.
    Yes, he is and he will only get much better, he has finally improved his chest to the point where it pretty much matches up with his physique, as well as everything else.



    Kai's condition hasn't been as perfect because he's still growing/evolving. that being said, most top guys are evolving minus Dexter who's standing still.
    I actually think Kai's all time best showing was at the 09' Australian pro and a lot of people feel likewise. I actually think kai is NOT getting better and will probabaly not improve much beyond where he is now, except through improving his conditioning.

    Phil, on the other hand, has a LOT more potential before he has to cash in his chips.


    Kai will retain his shape but he's been improving his chest, delts, tris...as he contines w/ mid back thickness and increasing the height of his traps he'll settle in and nail down the condition again.
    It seems to me that his traps are still the same size and because he hasn't been able to improve them within a year at this late in his career, he probably won't very much at all in the future.

    I don't think Kai will EVER have the chest or delts to match Cutler or will have that super thick and massive appearance that all Mr. Olympia's have to have in the front upper body.


    his mass + zippered quads, feathered inner lats + his being Kai just makes phil what he is next to Kai...not the main event.
    Most people feel differently. Have you see the poles? The LARGE majority of people feel Phil should've won, even the pros here at MD; some of them just don't want to say it because they don't want to appear to be not supporting an MD athlete, but I have heard through the grape vine that even most of them even think Phil was better.

    You cannot remedy insertion points (phil's flexed chest MM =narrow looking), + clavicles = narrow looking, the wheels aren't close.
    Actually, Wide clavicles don't make much of a difference as long as you can add enough mass. They called Flex Wheeler the most genetically gifted man ever and Flex had very narrow clavicles.

    Phil is not really considered narrow anymore. His chest is looking thicker than kais...and just as wide. His delts are getting pretty big, as well...bigger than kai's


    if Kai is winning the majority of the mandatory poses, guess what...he wins.
    Apparently, Kai is NOT winning the majority of the mandatories, as Phil won the pre-judging, which is the ONLY time they extensively compared every BB'r in every mandatory ad nauseum.

    If Phil would've held his condition longer, he would've won. He'll figure that out soon enough. That right there is the proof that Phil at his best is better than Kai...it's in the score cards and it's the Judges that gave Phil a better score when Phil was at his best, which was during pre-judging.


    With only a few posts on this site it's become apparent you think rather highly of yourself and your own opinions. others like myself have a different viewpoint.
    You are free to have your own view point. If you didn't, I would think you were seriously fucked up!

    In addition, you confuse pride with passion and intensity. There is a dramatic difference between the two and I fall into the latter category. So, before you evaluate me so fully, why don'y you read more of my posts and visist other forums (like Chem-E) where I post regulary. Perhaps there you will see that my posts in No-Bull are passion driven, not pride driven.

  17. #68

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    There are only 2 rounds in pro bodybuilding now that get scored.

    Morning prejudging and top 6 night time comparisons/posedown.

    each is worth 50%

    there were 11 judges and the top 3 and bottom 3 scores are thrown out - the majority of scores which is dumb imo - maybe throw out one from the top and bottom but 3 is too many.

    if the raw scores were counted kai would have only won by 3 points not 5.

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