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  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post
    Well, Pecker was a bastard, but the judgments weren't clearer or better during the entire Weider era.

    FYI Pecker is no longer related to bodybuilding or MO.

    Honestly, I think the judgements are now better than ever, less political.
    LOL, the sport of BB had it's questionable judging picks over the years 'eh ( 1980, 81 Olympia )
    I'm finally going to sit back and just enjoy WATCHING contests now, without any official involvement.

    Now when I say, nobody cares about my OPINIONS on contests...it's OFFICIAL

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Noel Fuller View Post
    Judges should be smart, not confused
    I'm dumb as a rock and confused as virgin bride on her wedding night.

    So, I quit judging and did the sport of BB a favor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Noel Fuller
    replied
    Judges should be smart, not confused

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Well, Pecker was a bastard, but the judgments weren't clearer or better during the entire Weider era.

    FYI Pecker is no longer related to bodybuilding or MO.

    Honestly, I think the judgements are now better than ever, less political.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post

    It is not something easy to achieve, many olympics sports have been trying for decades.

    There is no will within the organization to improve these aspects.

    There is no demand from competitors, fans....

    So, why the hell to bother?
    I suspect my BB contest ideals , died with Ben and Joe Weider .

    Before they passed away , David Pecker publisher of the National Enquirer ( AMI inc),bought their mags with the rights to the Olympia.
    When the biggest tabloid and gossip magazine takes over, you know things aren't headed in a more legitimate direction LOL

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard View Post
    2. My personal view wants bodybuilding to move towards being a more transparent, legit sport.
    It is not something easy to achieve, many olympics sports have been trying for decades.

    There is no will within the organization to improve these aspects.

    There is no demand from competitors, fans....

    So, why the hell to bother?

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post

    But that has always been the case, many athletes are adjusting their entire careers to adapt to what the judges want from them.

    There are dozens of subjective sports, even if the judges show their score tables there are still many complaints and controversies. The scoring codes for these sports are changed each Olympic cycle. We are talking about regulated and (supposedly) serious sports.

    We know that bodybuilding is in a lost place between WWE and serious sport.
    Good, thoughtful reply

    1. Yes, but the judged Olympic sport have specific standards and display every judges score after each athlete in each round.
    Bodybuilding has few clear standards and hides the judges scores until the actual competition is over.

    2. My personal view wants bodybuilding to move towards being a more transparent, legit sport.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard View Post
    The problem is, without adhering to "official guidelines", the winning ideals change with the wind.
    C'mon now, ignoring the official rules only promotes chaos and confusion.
    But that has always been the case, many athletes are adjusting their entire careers to adapt to what the judges want from them.

    There are dozens of subjective sports, even if the judges show their score tables there are still many complaints and controversies. The scoring codes for these sports are changed each Olympic cycle. We are talking about regulated and (supposedly) serious sports.

    We know that bodybuilding is in a lost place between WWE and serious sport.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post
    Those of us who follow the division have it quite clear, although we will never all agree 100% with the decisions of the judges. I suggest you do the same instead of looking for the official guidelines, or worry about male bodybuilding and forget about the figure.
    .

    Ok, since you don't want to use "official guidelines", what criteria should be used to judge?
    Which judge is "right" if everyone uses their own criteria ? See the problem?

    Perhaps, I need to get some actual judging experience before I comment LOL ?

    Look Beti, I'll openly admit YOUR perspective reflects the majority within the current contest scene.
    Nobody wants some "rule Nazi" telling everyone what's right and wrong .

    The problem is, without adhering to "official guidelines", the winning ideals change with the wind.
    C'mon now, ignoring the official rules only promotes chaos and confusion.


    Last edited by Howard; June 15, 2021, 04:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Those of us who follow the division have it quite clear, although we will never all agree 100% with the decisions of the judges. I suggest you do the same instead of looking for the official guidelines, or worry about male bodybuilding and forget about the figure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post



    The standard is always the Olympia champion. The latest winners weren't big, hard, or dry, so the direction is clear.
    Ok? But without established standards how do they judge the Olympia?

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post
    Still subjective, the level of size, condition and dryness ... yes, striations ... a little, a lot, when is it dry enough? If a girl has the proportions but has striations, should you lose to a girl without striations but with a bigger waist?

    The rules change over the years, especially when new divisions are added.

    The official pages show some criteria, but the pattern to follow is that of the reigning champion.

    Also, I believe (I have no evidence for this) that pro competitors receive annual updates on what the judges are looking for. They also receive feedback before and / or after competitions.

    Of course, when listening to many judges, some just talk shit and want to get rid of the competitor in a diplomatic way. Others are honest people who will tell what that person needs to hear: make improvements here and there, you need more sweep, better condition, you are in the wrong division, you are not good for this sport, etc ...
    1. Having visible striations is a totally objective standard. You either have 'em or you don't.

    2. The official rule book, is what any sport is governed by. If any pro, goes against the official rules,
    they get penalized. AFTER that, going forward you can change the rules to reflect desired changes.

    3.Without a clear , consistent standard, 10 different judges can judge by 10 different criteria .
    Last edited by Howard; June 15, 2021, 11:59 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Still subjective, the level of size, condition and dryness ... yes, striations ... a little, a lot, when is it dry enough? If a girl has the proportions but has striations, should you lose to a girl without striations but with a bigger waist?

    The rules change over the years, especially when new divisions are added.

    The official pages show some criteria, but the pattern to follow is that of the reigning champion.

    Also, I believe (I have no evidence for this) that pro competitors receive annual updates on what the judges are looking for. They also receive feedback before and / or after competitions.

    Of course, when listening to many judges, some just talk shit and want to get rid of the competitor in a diplomatic way. Others are honest people who will tell what that person needs to hear: make improvements here and there, you need more sweep, better condition, you are in the wrong division, you are not good for this sport, etc ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post

    Except mathematics and that kind of thing, everything in our world (politics, language, art ...) is subjective, that is, it is subject to interpretation.

    Sure, we use words and definitions to try to clarify concepts or the ideal physique, but contests and real life is more complex. Especially in the criteria of the different divisions.

    That said, there are bad judgments and good judgments.
    I understand your point but , having striations isn't a subjective factor.
    It's like eye color, ht, etc. The striations are seen/visible or they aren't.

    The problem is, figure was intended to be a "fitness body " without doing the dance/gymnastic routine.
    To defer from female BB, they established the "NO striations" standard as the figure criteria.

    That was fine until bikini came along and now they needed to have the figure look different from bikini.
    So, WITHOUT changing the official , written rules, they rewarded harder and leaner figure girls.

    That's fine , but they need to officially change the standards and update the official, written rules. They haven't.

    I know things like this or lighting criteria or judges seating distance from judges aren't always adhered too.
    Fans and contestants will talk about about inconsistent judging or stage lighting , etc

    I honestly believe most don't realize the IFBB and NPC have official rules and standards on this stuff.
    This isn't some controversial issue like drugs. You'd think making the promoter adhere to the official lighting standards would be a no brainer!
    Plus, how hard is it to always have the judges sitting in the correct location for every contest.

    AGAIN, I really don't care what standards they want to use . Just be consistent with the rules in the book.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard View Post

    LOL, here is the latest RULE Rules & Criteria | Tim Gardner Productions

    the 1st thing under scoring FIGURE " small degree of muscularity with separation , no visible STRIATIONS. "

    I don't see anything subjective about THAT. She has 'em or she doesn't.
    Except mathematics and that kind of thing, everything in our world (politics, language, art ...) is subjective, that is, it is subject to interpretation.

    Sure, we use words and definitions to try to clarify concepts or the ideal physique, but contests and real life is more complex. Especially in the criteria of the different divisions.

    That said, there are bad judgments and good judgments.

    Leave a comment:

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