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Are These Guys Natural???

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  • Ron Harris
    replied
    Contest condition today means striated glutes. Anything less than that, no matter how many crazy veins and striations you might have everywhere else, and you are OFF. I bemoan this fact because if I didn't have to dial my glutes in, I could compete around 212-215 instead of 201-204

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Originally posted by lifepulse View Post

    Yup. The sort of conditioning that was expected in Arnold's day, yes, it's reasonable that people would willingly diet down to that, repeatedly, "just for the sake of doing it", without a contest to worry about. But MODERN conditioning-- no, it feels like death, nobody purposely chases that, without a contest to do at the end (at least, not many times-- maybe once, just to "say they did it").


    -David
    Well, here we can see the origin of the "disagreement".

    What is the contest shape and what is it not?

    Is it the 70s, the 90s or the current era? Even within those diferent times, there were sharper competitors than others.

    Just do the best you can within your health and genetics, that's it. Being lazy and complacent is easy, but it shouldn't be an option.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Originally posted by lifepulse View Post


    This is all 100% true and insightful. That said- Labrada doesn’t walk around in contest shake, and neither does Vince Taylor. So again, the only point they was made- that your are now furiously trying to argue around- is that nobody gets into true modern day context conditioning, repeatedly, without a contest to prep for. If you can find a single example proving otherwise, cool, point made. What we were talking about, pages and pages ago, was whether people actually did they or not. I don’t think they do. Yes, they continue to push themselves to high standards and pursue goals- but NOT THAT standard or goal- simple as that, Beti.


    -David
    Labrada and Vince have family and businesses, and I also think they were never fanatical or extreme, they weren't of the all or nothing mentality.

    But if they can stay in near to contest shape, there's no reason why just anyone can't do it, the question is, is the desire too strong?

    Sometimes we lose the perspective that anyone who can do a contest diet is lucky. So, we say it's crazy just because it's painful, you're exhausted all day and can't sleep well?

    But I think it makes a lot more sense for an old man in his 60s or 70s, who doesn't have much to do and whose life is near the end to take some risks than for a teenager who goes to war. The young man has much more to lose, even if he survives, he is likely to have excruciating trauma, be addicted and have suicidal tendencies.

    Anyway my point was that when a certain sport is your only reason in life, no sacrifice seems excessive!

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Big Beat View Post
    2nd show syndrome.

    1st show you think you dieted too hard and lost muscle. 2nd show you decide not to diet too hard to hold onto muscle. You tell yourself the stage lights will bring out your definition.

    The result is a massive fail. I have lost count of how many times have I seen this, I did it myself.
    Great post!

    Competed in the 1986 NPC western NC ,after winning 1st at the Golds classic (Lt hvy at196 lbs)
    This was 3 weeks later and I weighed in at 205 lbs. My gym bros said I got bigger and better when posing in my gym.
    I ended up as the ONLY heavy wt in the show BUT the middles and Lt hvys were packed.

    They only had 5 judges, so the promoter said I didn't need to be in the prejudging, since I was 1st hvy by default.
    In recent years, they make you come out and stand beside the closest wt class to be "officially" in the prejudging.
    Ok !

    So, I kicked back, ate fruit ,cookies, drank soda and watched about 20 middle wts .

    The Lt Hvy's came out.
    They were even more of them and they stretched across the stage.
    Damn ,some looked good, but hey now, I was the BIG guy ,lying in wait.

    By the night show I was "carbed up" to 209 lbs. I was going to look HUGE and dominate the overall.
    Not so fast

    When time for the overall came , I did get an incredible pump with a bulging bicep vein.
    However, even back stage, my body looked "bloofy" without any visible striations or fine details when flexed.
    But hot damn, I was pumped as FUK and felt HUGE.

    I'm a pretty objective guy and reality hit home when we walked on stage for the overall.
    The Light, Middle and Lt hvy were all looking a LOT better when I glanced down the line up.
    Oh sure, I was big and pumped ,but, in my mind , resembled the Michelin man.

    The Lt Hvy took the title and I sincerely congratulated him.
    I left the venue feeling humble , having learned a valuable contest lesson.







    Leave a comment:


  • Big Beat
    replied
    2nd show syndrome.

    1st show you think you dieted too hard and lost muscle. 2nd show you decide not to diet too hard to hold onto muscle. You tell yourself the stage lights will bring out your definition.

    The result is a massive fail. I have lost count of how many times have I seen this, I did it myself.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ron Harris
    replied
    NEVER listen to gym rats when in prep! To most of them, just having abs and a few veins has them impressed, "Bro, you are shredded out of your skull!!" Most have no idea how lean we need to be for a contest. That's one good thing about having a decent coach - he will never blow smoke up your ass like that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Big Beat View Post

    Exactly it's a lot different looking good with a pump in the gym and looking good under the stage lights.
    ANYONE ( me included ) who didn't get in ripped condition has experienced that downfall on the contest stage.

    You pose in the gym with less harsh lighting that gives you a harder , impressive look.
    Plus, you get a lot of positive feedback from fellow gym rats.

    So, you figure , WTF, I must be ready and I'm BIGGER then ever.
    You show up at the heavier body wt feeling confident , UNTIL you strip down to go on with your class.
    You look around and notice a lot of guys look leaner with vascularity and deeper looking cuts.

    That growing doubt quickly evolves into feeling defeated when you walk out on stage.
    Of course some "true believers" never allow doubt to creep into their delusional minds LOL
    Last edited by Howard; July 8, 2021, 11:35 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Big Beat
    replied
    Originally posted by DerekRJohnson View Post

    I agree with you. Definitely a big difference to walking around in great shape and walking around in legit stage ready, contest shape.
    Exactly it's a lot different looking good with a pump in the gym and looking good under the stage lights.

    Leave a comment:


  • Big Beat
    replied
    Originally posted by DerekRJohnson View Post

    I agree with you. Definitely a big difference to walking around in great shape and walking around in legit stage ready, contest shape.
    Exactly it's a lot different looking good with a pump in the gym and looking good under the stage lights.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post

    Have you seen Lee Labrada's legs? They look very low in body fat. He has no plans to compete but he has a motivation to look in shape. Vince Taylor looks very, very good too.

    Other guys like Jay or Dennis James prefer to stay bigger, although away from their size as competitors.

    We have seen both ways, those who prefer to cling to mass and size, have more health problems, many have died: Kovacs, Nasser...

    If you can do like Dorian and detach yourself from your identity as a body, that's great, but your ego must have other values ​​to hold onto, like yoga, weed, and all that lifestyle. Maybe that's not for everyone.

    I am not an idealist at all, I am just describing how the human mind works. The human mind seeks anything, even extreme sacrifice, before nothingness, emptiness, or boredom.

    Once again, if you don't have many interests in life, you are almost forced to do something, if your vision is limited, you will continue to diet and lift extreme weights. Coleman is a clear example of this, even someone with a successful company and several children, that is, vital values ​​for an ordinary man, has not been enough to get out of his way towards self-destruction.

    Many join the army, that is, they are going to die and kill because their lives in their communities feel incomplete ob absurd. No, not everyone goes for that stupid ideals propaganda of defending a country or bringing democracy and all those lies.
    Beti, let's put Yates, Labrada, etc under the lights , on stage in posing trunks NOW, in good lean condition.
    THEN...take pics and videos of them posing with their current "decent/lean" bodies.

    We can compare them to existing videos and pics in their best pro contest condition.

    I'm willing to bet, it won't be a close call, and that's exactly the point.
    That's because max size combined with very low BF% is a difficult, tedious process.

    Leave a comment:


  • DerekRJohnson
    replied
    Originally posted by lifepulse View Post


    This is all 100% true and insightful. That said- Labrada doesn’t walk around in contest shake, and neither does Vince Taylor. So again, the only point they was made- that your are now furiously trying to argue around- is that nobody gets into true modern day context conditioning, repeatedly, without a contest to prep for. If you can find a single example proving otherwise, cool, point made. What we were talking about, pages and pages ago, was whether people actually did they or not. I don’t think they do. Yes, they continue to push themselves to high standards and pursue goals- but NOT THAT standard or goal- simple as that, Beti.


    -David
    I agree with you. Definitely a big difference to walking around in great shape and walking around in legit stage ready, contest shape.

    Leave a comment:


  • lifepulse
    replied
    Originally posted by Beti ona View Post

    Have you seen Lee Labrada's legs? They look very low in body fat. He has no plans to compete but he has a motivation to look in shape. Vince Taylor looks very, very good too.

    Other guys like Jay or Dennis James prefer to stay bigger, although away from their size as competitors.

    We have seen both ways, those who prefer to cling to mass and size, have more health problems, many have died: Kovacs, Nasser...

    If you can do like Dorian and detach yourself from your identity as a body, that's great, but your ego must have other values ​​to hold onto, like yoga, weed, and all that lifestyle. Maybe that's not for everyone.

    I am not an idealist at all, I am just describing how the human mind works. The human mind seeks anything, even extreme sacrifice, before nothingness, emptiness, or boredom.

    Once again, if you don't have many interests in life, you are almost forced to do something, if your vision is limited, you will continue to diet and lift extreme weights. Coleman is a clear example of this, even someone with a successful company and several children, that is, vital values ​​for an ordinary man, has not been enough to get out of his way towards self-destruction.

    Many join the army, that is, they are going to die and kill because their lives in their communities feel incomplete ob absurd. No, not everyone goes for that stupid ideals propaganda of defending a country or bringing democracy and all those lies.

    This is all 100% true and insightful. That said- Labrada doesn’t walk around in contest shake, and neither does Vince Taylor. So again, the only point they was made- that your are now furiously trying to argue around- is that nobody gets into true modern day context conditioning, repeatedly, without a contest to prep for. If you can find a single example proving otherwise, cool, point made. What we were talking about, pages and pages ago, was whether people actually did they or not. I don’t think they do. Yes, they continue to push themselves to high standards and pursue goals- but NOT THAT standard or goal- simple as that, Beti.


    -David

    Leave a comment:


  • Beti ona
    replied
    Originally posted by lifepulse View Post


    It's not a matter of being "woke", it's a matter of being real. I'm not disappointed in bodybuilding-- I just feel I have more perspective on it, having first been a fan, then an active competitor, then somebody who helped a lot of other people to compete, then somebody who personally talked to and interviewed a lot of the top pros-- you just learn more as you go, rather than having an idealistic "outsider perspective"-- all theory, no practice-- which is where I find fault with a lot of your views, Beti. You are smart, but you have no real-world experience at all, and thus, it is nothing but theoretical pontification. (Not coincidentally, EVERYBODY ELSE in this thread who has those same credentials-- fan, competitor, an talks to other pros-- shares my views on this subject. There's something to be said for REAL WORLD application, brother.)


    We weren't talking about "do some people still compete (get shredded) into their 50s or 60s". We KNOW that people do that.


    We were talking about, ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO CONSISTENTLY GET INTO CONTEST SHAPE, DECADE AFTER DECADE, WITHOUT HAVING AN ACTUAL CONTEST TO PREP FOR. And the point is, those people don't exist, as far as we know. I've certainly never seen them. Maybe once, or twice-- but then, after that, most lose an "intrinsic motivation" to push their bodies that hard, without an extrinsic motivator.


    THAT was the discussion at point. Stop with the switch-and-bait.


    -David
    Have you seen Lee Labrada's legs? They look very low in body fat. He has no plans to compete but he has a motivation to look in shape. Vince Taylor looks very, very good too.

    Other guys like Jay or Dennis James prefer to stay bigger, although away from their size as competitors.

    We have seen both ways, those who prefer to cling to mass and size, have more health problems, many have died: Kovacs, Nasser...

    If you can do like Dorian and detach yourself from your identity as a body, that's great, but your ego must have other values ​​to hold onto, like yoga, weed, and all that lifestyle. Maybe that's not for everyone.

    I am not an idealist at all, I am just describing how the human mind works. The human mind seeks anything, even extreme sacrifice, before nothingness, emptiness, or boredom.

    Once again, if you don't have many interests in life, you are almost forced to do something, if your vision is limited, you will continue to diet and lift extreme weights. Coleman is a clear example of this, even someone with a successful company and several children, that is, vital values ​​for an ordinary man, has not been enough to get out of his way towards self-destruction.

    Many join the army, that is, they are going to die and kill because their lives in their communities feel incomplete ob absurd. No, not everyone goes for that stupid ideals propaganda of defending a country or bringing democracy and all those lies.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ron Harris
    replied
    Originally posted by lifepulse View Post

    Yup. The sort of conditioning that was expected in Arnold's day, yes, it's reasonable that people would willingly diet down to that, repeatedly, "just for the sake of doing it", without a contest to worry about. But MODERN conditioning-- no, it feels like death, nobody purposely chases that, without a contest to do at the end (at least, not many times-- maybe once, just to "say they did it").


    -David
    I can stay in 70's contest condition year-round! LOL

    Leave a comment:


  • Ron Harris
    replied
    Originally posted by Big Beat View Post
    The striated glutes thing is difficult because some guys have that in the off season whereas some never get it no matter how lean they are.

    The point of trying to keep muscle when dieting is well made. This doubly hard when natural, most natural guys lose a significant amount of muscle to get in shape.
    I have been to a few pro natural shows, and the guys who placed best were usually not big at all, but shredded out of their skulls. I don't think they worry as much about losing mass, because condition seems to be the top attribute those judges reward.

    Leave a comment:

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