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Make BB safer ? Damned if you do ( or do NOT) act...

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  • Make BB safer ? Damned if you do ( or do NOT) act...

    In light of the succession of recent deaths and health issues within bodybuilding, many want the sport to be safer.

    Some are demanding the IFBB and other big names come in with rules and policies to make BB a safer and healthier sport.
    I echo this sentiment and would applaud any sensible, effective moves to help make BB less risky.

    However, IF this was done, some critical of current BB safety, would also cry foul if enforced safety standards were imposed.

    All I ask , if for bodybuilders and fans , to be consistent on the issue of health risks with contest BB.

    *You can't demand "they" do something and then get upset when "they" do it.
    I saw a star, reached for it...and MISSED

  • #2
    Competitors see that their mates are dropping dead, so they should take precautionary measures. Also, they know which coaches do what things and who have sick and dead clients, so they shouldn't work with those gurus.

    I could agree to establish health controls but not drug tests. Maybe go back to diuretic tests.

    And definitely penalize fuzzy, disproportionate and bulging muscles.
    http://betionastore.es/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Beti ona View Post
      Competitors see that their mates are dropping dead, so they should take precautionary measures. Also, they know which coaches do what things and who have sick and dead clients, so they shouldn't work with those gurus.

      I could agree to establish health controls but not drug tests. Maybe go back to diuretic tests.

      And definitely penalize fuzzy, disproportionate and bulging muscles.
      1. The main reason the " those gurus" get hired is, they're willing to use risky methods to get results.

      2. You're 100% correct that the winning look now, essentially requires risky prep routines.
      Unless the judges STOP picking them, the risk taking gurus will be in demand.

      3. You don't need full scale steroid testing IF it's judged right .
      Diuretics need to be tested because those can actually kill a competitor within hours.
      I saw a star, reached for it...and MISSED

      Comment


      • #4
        The main thing I'm concerned with is doing NOTHING to help ban the most extreme risky practices.

        I saw a star, reached for it...and MISSED

        Comment


        • #5
          This is a pretty simple proposition.



          Point is, if the IFBB finally grows some nuts and puts some limits on "what is too much", then the sport changes, simple as that. There will always be freaks who "want to go harder than the current upper limit". There already ARE-- like Rich Pianna, being a GREAT example. And now his offspring, that new huge 5% guy. And Craig Golias. List goes on.


          Folks can now actually make a great living NOT EVEN COMPETING, just being outright FREAKS-- and for those who are into that (obviously, tons of people are-- mostly little teenage boys-- because they don't know better and think it's real, much like I liked pro wrestling when I was young)-- for those who are into that, they can still pursue it through social media, and be into "the freakiest of the freaky".


          This now "solves" the issue of, "How do you say there's such a thing as "TOO MUCH MUSCLE"".


          Well, we finally just nut up, and SAY IT-- and say that Dorian and Ronnie took it all the way, and everything past that is synthetic-- so there needs to be a "reigning-in".


          Bodybuilding was never popular, so it RELIED on the fans who WANTED THE FREAKS. Football was always like this, too, a "purist sport". And because of that, afraid to do away with the more violent stuff that hurt players.


          But now that the sport has grown to the level of popularity that it has, there is outcry-- among fans, among players, among the parents of children who grown up watching the sport and want to play the sport-- and want to see it change and evolve, so the next generation can continue to play, but without head trauma and dying at 35.


          Bodybuilding never had a real fan base. Due to the odd combo of social media and the new glam divisions, it finally does. It finally has REAL VISIBILITY, within the broader world AT LARGER-- to some degree.


          And with that-- I feel like maybe it is finally ready to evolve?


          For YEARS, I argued for mass monsters-- "fuck esthetics". I loved Ronnie and Dorian, and everything else was "weak". But enough is enough. Ronnie and Dorian got there MOSTLY through hard work-- and gave their lives for it-- Dorian got out, and healed-- Ronnie is still around, but broken for life--


          But everybody after that, they're just kicking off younger and younger. Because they're trying to replicate Ronnie and Dorian. And those guys are not replicable, by and large.



          So yeah-- maybe it's time. I think it's time. I will ALWAYS love hardcore, unregulated bodybuilding. But if it is to survive, it needs to evolve, soon.


          -David

          Comment


          • #6
            I wonder what impact it would have if say Arnold said he was just having the pro classic at his show and removed the open?

            MD Global Muscle Radio ep.40-https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-MIKWx8sAcw&t=5319s

            Comment


            • #7
              You can keep banging your head until you pass out from the pain.

              Of course, if you take enough drugs, you can keep banging until it kills you.

              LP is 100% correct that social media will keep extreme freaks in the game.
              BUT, they don't need to be rewarded in sanctioned contests.

              MMA "cage fighting" started as a no holds barred, underground sport.
              Then some sensible rules were added and official sanctions were started to regulate it, etc.
              BOOM! Cage fighting became a BIG sports business that's a popular lucrative sport.

              Of course, the cage fighting purists screamed the regulated sport wasn't "REAL"
              Ok, I guess not kicking a guys nuts into his chest or poking his eyes out, isn't life /death fighting.

              BUT, it does allow the top MMA fighters to go at it without totally maiming each other.
              For every hardcore fan MMA lost, they got 10 new fans , ready to spend $$ on PPV and attending fights.

              It remains to be seen what direction pro BB will go now.
              Either way, it will be interesting to see how it all goes down in the years ahead.
              I saw a star, reached for it...and MISSED

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Howard View Post
                You can keep banging your head until you pass out from the pain.

                Of course, if you take enough drugs, you can keep banging until it kills you.

                LP is 100% correct that social media will keep extreme freaks in the game.
                BUT, they don't need to be rewarded in sanctioned contests.

                MMA "cage fighting" started as a no holds barred, underground sport.
                Then some sensible rules were added and official sanctions were started to regulate it, etc.
                BOOM! Cage fighting became a BIG sports business that's a popular lucrative sport.

                Of course, the cage fighting purists screamed the regulated sport wasn't "REAL"
                Ok, I guess not kicking a guys nuts into his chest or poking his eyes out, isn't life /death fighting.

                BUT, it does allow the top MMA fighters to go at it without totally maiming each other.
                For every hardcore fan MMA lost, they got 10 new fans , ready to spend $$ on PPV and attending fights.

                It remains to be seen what direction pro BB will go now.
                Either way, it will be interesting to see how it all goes down in the years ahead.

                I love how I present a really good and compelling argument and point-- and then you come in, and give the exact same argument and point, just subbing in a different sport, lmfao. I guess "glad you agree"-- thief!


                -David

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Howard View Post
                  You can keep banging your head until you pass out from the pain.

                  Of course, if you take enough drugs, you can keep banging until it kills you.

                  LP is 100% correct that social media will keep extreme freaks in the game.
                  BUT, they don't need to be rewarded in sanctioned contests.

                  MMA "cage fighting" started as a no holds barred, underground sport.
                  Then some sensible rules were added and official sanctions were started to regulate it, etc.
                  BOOM! Cage fighting became a BIG sports business that's a popular lucrative sport.

                  Of course, the cage fighting purists screamed the regulated sport wasn't "REAL"
                  Ok, I guess not kicking a guys nuts into his chest or poking his eyes out, isn't life /death fighting.

                  BUT, it does allow the top MMA fighters to go at it without totally maiming each other.
                  For every hardcore fan MMA lost, they got 10 new fans , ready to spend $$ on PPV and attending fights.

                  It remains to be seen what direction pro BB will go now.
                  Either way, it will be interesting to see how it all goes down in the years ahead.

                  The REAL POINT is--


                  ONCE the numbers are "there" for something, it HAS TO become more LEGITIMATE and TRANSPARENT, and less "crooked".


                  The IFBB has NEVER accepted that. But it looks like they will now be forced to-- if not next week, then soon thereafter.


                  There are now a multitude of YouTube pages-- really good ones, with really smart analysis-- that rip apart the IFBB, the entire judging system, all of it. And these people are NOT competitors, NOT coaches, NOT vested in the industry-- so they can't really "be threatened" and "controlled" by the mafia anymore.


                  That's how GEAR'D Up started. Adam was doing a podcast with Eric Posjepal in Chicago, called "Elite Muscle Report", in 2012. They started going to shows in Chicago and doing play-by-play at some of them. They also started openly talking about gear, in an era where that was still unheard of. The Illinois NPC chariman contacted Eric and informed him that if they didn't stop talking openly about gear on their podcast, they wouldn't be allowed at shows any longer. Eric bowed down and agreed to shut up. Adam, by contrast, said fuck that-- the NPC doesn't pay my fucking bills-- and bounced. Called me, and we started GEAR'D Up-- and, without patting myself on the back, I'd like to think we were one of the first "media outlets" that was getting pros to start opening up, publicly, about their usage. It was uncensorsed and raw.


                  Nowadays, EVERYBODY does it-- and the public is SLOWLY LEARNING because of it. Yes, the dumb ones are getting dumber, and dying younger for it. But the smart ones are getting smarter-- and the trend in THINKING is AWAY from "mass at all costs". Even among the old-timers, like me, who worshipped it.


                  It's time to get legit, boys. Like it or not. We've seen enough death and carnage.


                  -David

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Boxing was always popular with the masses (as was soccer) so introducing MMA by softening the sport was not much of a challenge for promoters. Also, apparently, boxing was suffering from a spectator loss crisis as it was becoming a boring sport without charismatic fighters.

                    Women's beauty pageants may be popular, but men's beauty pageants have never been, that's why the classic or physique doesn't work for mainstream.

                    Bodybuilding cant become healthy without destroying itself?

                    Bodybuilders have many venues to compete with or without drug testing. The Pro league is the most prestigious place to compete and also the most dangerous.

                    This is very similar to climbing without ropes or safety carabiners, it is a sport that very few climbers practice, and the number of deaths among those practitioners is really high. If you enforce the use of safety ropes, you are destroying the risk and adrenaline that these people love to chase. It is a tragedy when they die but it is a lifestyle that they have chosen assuming that danger and the consequences.
                    http://betionastore.es/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Beti ona View Post
                      Boxing was always popular with the masses (as was soccer) so introducing MMA by softening the sport was not much of a challenge for promoters. Also, apparently, boxing was suffering from a spectator loss crisis as it was becoming a boring sport without charismatic fighters.

                      Women's beauty pageants may be popular, but men's beauty pageants have never been, that's why the classic or physique doesn't work for mainstream.

                      Bodybuilding cant become healthy without destroying itself?

                      Bodybuilders have many venues to compete with or without drug testing. The Pro league is the most prestigious place to compete and also the most dangerous.

                      This is very similar to climbing without ropes or safety carabiners, it is a sport that very few climbers practice, and the number of deaths among those practitioners is really high. If you enforce the use of safety ropes, you are destroying the risk and adrenaline that these people love to chase. It is a tragedy when they die but it is a lifestyle that they have chosen assuming that danger and the consequences.

                      Counterpoint:


                      Boxing went "as far as it could go" with Tyson and the likes-- and after that, had to "evolve". Fighters were all poor black people who basically were "used" by powerful white people, to endanger their lives and accept becoming brain-damaged, so they could make some money and support their families. As culture changed over the last 50 years or so, this has been now seen to be "inappropriate", and so there is all sorts of uproar about making boxing safer, and/or doing away with it entirely. Yes, MMA sort-of stood in its place, in certain ways, as a "softer, gentler, more accessible version" of boxing. But end of the day, if society evolves in its thinking to the point where "we no longer want stuff that violent, we don't want people risking their lives and developing brain damage"-- well, then boxing is no longer relevant in that day and age, and dies. Or evolves.


                      I feel bodybuilding is at this same crucial nexus right now. It was always about "being open-ended and taking shit as far as possible". But we kinda' DID THAT-- with Ronnie, Dorian, etc. Questing for "MORE THAN THAT", is doing nothing but 1) leading to guts that make everybody hate the division, 2) leading to early deaths that make everybody hate the division, and 3) leading to implants and SEO and fake shit, that are making even real fans like YOU AND ME, hate the fucking division.


                      The point is, bodybuilding is no longer "boxing", Beti-- it's more like "boxing with brass knuckles in your hands". It has CHANGED, and NOT for the better-- because it is destroying the lives, and minds, of those who are choosing to go into it.


                      To that end-- it might never become "healthy"-- but same time, IF the standard was "20lbs less in total size", I GUARANTEE that it would force the sport to be MORE healthy than it currently is. That's not open to debate.


                      Climbing without safety ropes-- cool, that's great, for the 5 people on the planet who are fucked up enough in the head to want to watch that sort of thing. Hell, why not just commit to playing straight-up Russian Roulette?


                      There is plenty of "risk and adrenaline" to bodybuilding, without running 6g of gear per week, dude. Putting 500lbs on your back, makes you feel that risk and adrenaline. So does dieting really hard. But the "feeling of risk and adrenaline", that comes from SEVERE DRUG ABUSE, is not something we should be encoding as "a needed and crucial defining feature of the sport".


                      Yes, there are a handful of people who are so dedicated to "hardcore at all costs"-- "the idea of limitless progression"-- that they scoff at the idea of "restricting" the open division. I felt this way from 2003 through 2017-- until Dallas died at 27 or whatever. Direct consequence of the industry promoting what it does. Everybody saw it coming. Nobody said a goddamned thing. Then once passed, everybody rapidly forgot about it and moved on with life.


                      You are now FINALLY seeing a LOT of the "hardcore at all costs" folks-- like me-- changing our minds. It's stupid now. It's not worth countless deaths.


                      Again, I don't care-- the IFBB can do whatever it wants to do. But it's sort of like "defending hardcore FEMALE bodybuilding, at all costs"-- saying the girls should be allowed to compete with beards and shit. I mean, I suppose I get it-- but do you really think there will be a fan base left in 2 weeks if you go that route? If open BB continues on this path, I guarantee it will have zero audience within 5 years. People DO eventually figure out "stupid shit is stupid". Took years of increasing cigarette prices and brainwashing the public with dogma-- but reality is, far less people smoke nowadays, than 20-30 years ago. I have a 12 year old daughter, and now, the kids all look at smoking as "really stupid". Granted, they vape-- which is also probably bad (sort of like doing CPD instead of open BB, lol)-- but maybe "a little less bad"?


                      Culture evolves, Beti. I'm sick and tired of seeing people I care about, die young. So are a lot of other fans of the sport, from what I can tell.


                      I'm not pretending I have the solution, because I don't. I just don't think "we can't change it, or even question changing it", is no longer a viable response. Go watch the Bro Chat that Fouad Abiad put out yesterday, and watch them all discuss this issue. The only person rabidly defending "leaving open BB like it is, unregulated"-- who thinks it would "kill the sport" if you regulated it, like you do-- is Iain Valliere. And honestly, he looks like a crazy asshole the whole time, completely rationalizing everything and defensive as hell, while Fouad and Guy calmly discuss ways it COULD change. Goes to show-- yes, some are stuck in that thinking ("It has to stay as-is!"), but NOT all.


                      -David


                      -David

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lifepulse View Post


                        Counterpoint:


                        Boxing went "as far as it could go" with Tyson and the likes-- and after that, had to "evolve". Fighters were all poor black people who basically were "used" by powerful white people, to endanger their lives and accept becoming brain-damaged, so they could make some money and support their families. As culture changed over the last 50 years or so, this has been now seen to be "inappropriate", and so there is all sorts of uproar about making boxing safer, and/or doing away with it entirely. Yes, MMA sort-of stood in its place, in certain ways, as a "softer, gentler, more accessible version" of boxing. But end of the day, if society evolves in its thinking to the point where "we no longer want stuff that violent, we don't want people risking their lives and developing brain damage"-- well, then boxing is no longer relevant in that day and age, and dies. Or evolves.
                        Totally true, but MMA is just another form of exploitation, now they use poor people from Asia and South America instead of black Americans.

                        What I mean is that the business remains the same. It's just a little more refined.

                        Statistically, there are fewer seriously injured and fatalities in MMA than in boxing?

                        On the other hand, bodybuilding was never a sport for the poor who are looking to prosper, because in most cases it is an expensive sport where you spend more money than you get. Of course, there are some guys who came from nowhere and transformed their bodies and their lives thanks to bodybuilding, but it is a minority. Money was never or should be the motivation to compete in this sport. That is why you see so many master athletes competing, they are losing money, not making money.
                        http://betionastore.es/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lifepulse View Post
                          I feel bodybuilding is at this same crucial nexus right now. It was always about "being open-ended and taking shit as far as possible". But we kinda' DID THAT-- with Ronnie, Dorian, etc. Questing for "MORE THAN THAT", is doing nothing but 1) leading to guts that make everybody hate the division, 2) leading to early deaths that make everybody hate the division, and 3) leading to implants and SEO and fake shit, that are making even real fans like YOU AND ME, hate the fucking division.
                          A few weeks ago I told harmankardon that the zenith of the sport is now in the past and that it will never return.

                          But my opinion was not based so much on health problems, but on what bodybuilders look like. The have taken the body to the limit, peds technology can improve, but human genetics does not seem to be able to withstand more advances without falling in the process. We have gone from diet and training to drugs, and from drugs to slin, GH and diuretics, to a lot of SEO. The result is bullshit.

                          We have dead dudes and worse bodies, so yeah, its need to stop stepping on the gas. But no one's going to slow down too much
                          http://betionastore.es/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Beti ona View Post

                            Totally true, but MMA is just another form of exploitation, now they use poor people from Asia and South America instead of black Americans.

                            What I mean is that the business remains the same. It's just a little more refined.

                            Statistically, there are fewer seriously injured and fatalities in MMA than in boxing?

                            On the other hand, bodybuilding was never a sport for the poor who are looking to prosper, because in most cases it is an expensive sport where you spend more money than you get. Of course, there are some guys who came from nowhere and transformed their bodies and their lives thanks to bodybuilding, but it is a minority. Money was never or should be the motivation to compete in this sport. That is why you see so many master athletes competing, they are losing money, not making money.

                            Your first point-- I think that's just "the march of history over time"-- everything that Nietzsche and Sartre and Marx were struggling to put into words. There will always be people with more wealth/power/status, and there will always be those fighting to GET more wealth/power/status-- the the people in the first camp will use their wealth/power/status the exploit those in the latter class. The exact formulation of the setup evolves over time-- maybe becomes "more fair to trans people" or "to black people" or "more protective of mental health" or "physical safety"-- the "public", or "society", redefines standards of values over time, and it evolves, simple as that, based on what else is culturally relevant (god and religion vs. science-- materialism vs. spiritualism-- etc.). Now, it's no longer okay to exploit black people, but it's still okay to exploit Asians and South Americans. But in 20 years, that will no longer be okay, and things will change again.


                            For proof of this-- 20 years ago, we all watched Dave Chapelle as being "the epitome of WOKE"-- he "got it" and bridged issues between white and black culture, like few others had. Flash forward 20 years, he puts out his most recent special (all about questioning the trans movement)-- and he is considered "ignorant" and "entitled" and "priviledged" . The point is, those concepts are all RELATIVE to who happens to have power, and who does NOT, at any given time.


                            I don't know if there are less injuries in MMA than boxing, I have no idea. But it is probably perceived that way. We know boxing destroyed Sugar Ray and Muhammed Ali, and that's all the public needs to know to "make an outcry". I'm sure we will soften up MMA eventually as well.
                            _________

                            As for "bodybuilding never being a sport for the poor who are looking to proper"-- while that's technically true, it's really not how competitors ACTUALLY think. I have worked with tons of competitors, Beti. Most of the people who really "get into it", subconsciously seem to think, on some level, that "being a good competitor is going to help them in life"-- like, allow them to get rich, or famous, or springboard to commercial success. They really, really do. I don't know why. People who have never competed come to me and seem to think competitors get paid, are rich and famous, etc. There's something about the "glamour" and "lie" of it all-- the narcissism of it all-- people just aren't very rational when it comes to competing.


                            So I agree, money should never be the motivator-- wrong sport, if that's your goal!


                            -David

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Beti ona View Post

                              A few weeks ago I told harmankardon that the zenith of the sport is now in the past and that it will never return.

                              But my opinion was not based so much on health problems, but on what bodybuilders look like. The have taken the body to the limit, peds technology can improve, but human genetics does not seem to be able to withstand more advances without falling in the process. We have gone from diet and training to drugs, and from drugs to slin, GH and diuretics, to a lot of SEO. The result is bullshit.

                              We have dead dudes and worse bodies, so yeah, its need to stop stepping on the gas. But no one's going to slow down too much

                              When we interviewed Dorian in 2014, we basically said this, and he agreed. Then I did "Beyond Driven Radio" on Advices Radio (now Think Big Media, with Scott McNally)-- did an episode with Evan Centopani where we talked about this a lot.


                              I don't think the sport CAN go any farther than Ronnie, not through "hard work". Anything past that, is PURE drugs, and implants, and chicanery. Ramy is not "progress". Neither is Nick Walker. I like both of them, and I am a fan of the sport-- but it's turning into a completely artificial shit show.


                              It's not just "diet and training to drugs, and drugs to slin, GH and diuretics, to a lot of SEO"-- it's worse than that. It's Increlex-- it's muscle inflammatory products-- it's lip fillers and face fillers and but implants-- it's dumb.


                              The more we talk about it-- the more people will change their mind and be reasonable about it. I was stuck in the "mass at all costs, can't reverse it" mindset most of my fandom. But it's enough. It's promoting a whole new generation of kids to chase death, point blank. I don't see how anybody can support that, at this stage.


                              -David

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