Mandatory Poses

[Bestia]

Ok pet peave of mine is the "customizing" of mandatory poses. The mandatory poses have a set way they are required to be done and the purpose for that is to compare each competitors physique in the same way.

Over time, competitors started making slight adjustments to each mandatory in order to favor their physique. In essence, this defeats the whole purpose of mandatories.

For example, a minor example is the side tricep. You now had a traditional side tricep, the Dorian style with rear leg trailing, and the hybrid side tricep ab thigh style that Andrew likes to hit. That kind of shit is what the free posing is for. Crab most muscular is a crab most muscular - not 30 Nick Walker variations.

Sorry end of rant but it gets under my skin obviously

[Giles]

Oh now I do like the way Andrew Jacked hits his front double though.

And the way Dorian hit his side tricep with the leg forward/back was absolutely bloody iconic.

[Bestia]

Oh now I do like the way Andrew Jacked hits his front double though.

And the way Dorian hit his side tricep with the leg forward/back was absolutely bloody iconic.

Absolutely - Dorians side tricep is one of my favorite poses of all time, but it isn't the mandatory side tricep. Do it in the free posing routine or the posedown. Just because the pose looks fantastic the way someone has tweaked it doesn't mean it is correct for the mandatory - in fact, that is exactly my point on why the mandatories should be done the same way by each competitor.

[lifepulse]

There are mandatory poses, but to the best of my knowledge, there aren’t mandatory ways of doing the mandatory poses- and there’s a string history of letting competitors hit their mandstories with slight variation to show their best look. (Plus the most muscular wasn’t a mandatory, historically, and at every NPC show I have ever been to, they have never called, “crab most muscular”- they call “your favorite most muscular”; at OCB shows, they call for distinct and different most muscular shots.)

I understand your annoyance, but same time- if someone hits a variation and it doesn’t show what the judges want to see, so much the worse for that competitor, they just screwed themselves. Some of the really big guys simply don’t have the flexibility/ability to hit a side triceps (Ruhl, Roelly), and once their arms and delts are too overdeveloped, it becomes very difficult to hit and ab/thigh.

[Beti ona]

It only makes judging more difficult and subjective than it is.

But it also gives a little freedom and creativity to the athletes to gain an advantage, since the free pose is not judged/evaluated.

For example, the FDB, Andrew pose it in the style of Victor or Kai, is that wrong?

I still hate the ST reconverted to a frontal shot, or the A&T without showing the total abd wall in a frontal way.

[lifepulse]

I think Andrew’s FDB does him a disservice- tilting to the angle is fine, but he needs to close his forearms into his arms closer lest they start to look stringy.

The sport is inherently subjective, no way around that- I think the winner is “the person who draws the eye the best, or the most”- so, I think variations of poses allow for that to happen just fine. They’re not measuring who has the most-best proportions in some pseudo-objective manner, they’re just seeing “who has the most wow”. Variations of poses allow for “wow”, or can ruin it. Sometimes a competitor will hit the completely wrong pose during a mandatory and not be corrected by a judge (hit a side chest when they call side tri, or a rear lat when they hit rear double), and that’s on the competitor.

Much of nick’s “wow” is due to his posing, and how he locks each shot in like granite. Notice on his rear double to rear lat, he doesn’t move or shift or change his legs one bit, while both Samson and Andrew do, makes the latter two look shifty and jerky, Walker looks cold as ice. I feel Andrew’s posing this weekend is even worse than last year in many ways. Side triceps looks worse (execution), most muscular needs a lot of work.

[Bestia]

When I was judging there were guidelines of what constituted each pose. Hands on hips most muscular and crab most muscular were traditionally the most abused/modified poses.

Admittedly, I believe some of the "flexibility" within each pose has been made possible by the way the judges at the top levels ask for each pose. Instead of specifically asking for rear double bicep spiking the right calf or back lat spread spiking left calf or requiring side chest showing the left side or the side tricep showing the right side, it is asked for more generally.

Anyway, I ranted enough. Miniscule issue in the long list of things that can be improved in the sport

[Beti ona]

Much of nick’s “wow” is due to his posing, and how he locks each shot in like granite. Notice on his rear double to rear lat, he doesn’t move or shift or change his legs one bit, while both Samson and Andrew do, makes the latter two look shifty and jerky, Walker looks cold as ice. I feel Andrew’s posing this weekend is even worse than last year in many ways. Side triceps looks worse (execution), most muscular needs a lot of work.

Nick being genetically ugliest, has put more focus on what can make a difference, size, condition and pose exection. His ST is at the highest level, the angle and abd: perfect.

Andrew worked with Flex for the poses in the past, he should look for someone else.

[lifepulse]

You’re from Illinois (me too originally). Illinois (used to) implement old AAU judging guidelines, make you hit the side chest on a specific side, side tri on a specific side, spike specific calves with specific shots. When I got out of Illinois, to Maryland, they didn’t make competitors do that. When I would go to shows in Virginia, the chairman/head judge wouldn’t allow them to twist on their quarter turns, arms had to be straight at the sides. (Howard talks about it being this way in Georgia as well.) So if obviously differs some by region, era, and who is judging.

My larger point:

Some (Weinberger) say they judge pose-for-pose.

Some think they judge criteria vs criteria (mass, conditioning, symmetry).

it gets endlessly debated whether the posing routine “counts”, or is “scored”.

It gets endlessly debated whether “finals contribute to your placing, or if it’s all done at prejudging”. Now, they seem to have “confirmations rounds” at both the O and the arnold, which seems to indicate that finals DO, in fact, factor in heavily.

It gets debated whether “transitions matter”- if Walker holds his gut perfectly during mandstories, but lets it go during transitions, does that hurt his placing? (Answer seems to be yes, it does.) If a guy is standing on the rear diaganol, not actively being compared, and lets his gut go, does that potentially hurt his placing? (Traditional wisdom says yes, it does.)

Point being, the judges seem to be judging ALL of that stuff, at all times- and placing competitors seems to be based more on “the overall impression made by the competitors, given the totality of their time on stage”.

The mandatories just help to showcase that in different ways, from different angles, in different contexts. There is no real way to standardize it uniformly that will be “optimal and ideal”. Bodybuilding is as much art as it is sport, so, some regulation to poses, with some freedom of execution, seems fine to me. (Just like fitness girl routines have to have certain mandatory moves incorporated, but how and when they incorporate those moves is up to them.)

If someone hits side tri and turns mostly to the front, it just makes their side tri a weak, potentially losing, shot. They are hiding a weakness, and like arnold always said, posing is showing strengths and hiding weaknesses.

[darn door]

Yeah, we definitely need some standards because it gets too hard to compare people in different poses. The two that really get on my nerves are the Roelly side tri variant with the arm in front, and the oblique shot that at least half of pros have started doing in the past 2-3 years instead of a regular ab & thigh. I don't mind switching between different MM variants because it's kind of like a fun posedown at the end of the comparisons and functions much the same way as the "favorite classic pose" in the classic division.

[Giles]

I think Andrew’s FDB does him a disservice- tilting to the angle is fine, but he needs to close his forearms into his arms closer lest they start to look stringy.

The sport is inherently subjective, no way around that- I think the winner is “the person who draws the eye the best, or the most”- so, I think variations of poses allow for that to happen just fine. They’re not measuring who has the most-best proportions in some pseudo-objective manner, they’re just seeing “who has the most wow”. Variations of poses allow for “wow”, or can ruin it. Sometimes a competitor will hit the completely wrong pose during a mandatory and not be corrected by a judge (hit a side chest when they call side tri, or a rear lat when they hit rear double), and that’s on the competitor.

Much of nick’s “wow” is due to his posing, and how he locks each shot in like granite. Notice on his rear double to rear lat, he doesn’t move or shift or change his legs one bit, while both Samson and Andrew do, makes the latter two look shifty and jerky, Walker looks cold as ice. I feel Andrew’s posing this weekend is even worse than last year in many ways. Side triceps looks worse (execution), most muscular needs a lot of work.

I do respect the way Nick executes, hits and holds all of his compulsories, he’s excellent at that.

Do you remember Arnold’s side tricep? (Arms out straight to the side) How did he ever get away with that??? Crazy.

[Bestia]

Crazy times back when the AAU and NPC were battling for supremacy. A friend and mentor Bill Norberg was AAU America in 88. I can recall anticipating him and Chuck Sanow battling for the title but Chuck had jumped to the NPC. Then the NPC strengthened it's ties to the IFBB and it was game/set/match.

[lifepulse]

Crazy times back when the AAU and NPC were battling for supremacy. A friend and mentor Bill Norberg was AAU America in 88. I can recall anticipating him and Chuck Sanow battling for the title but Chuck had jumped to the NPC. Then the NPC strengthened it's ties to the IFBB and it was game/set/match.

Lol, good ol' Chuck. (I worked with his longtime gal, Robyn Mentgen, at Lifetime in Warrenville; she was a good friend of mine, definitely a wee bit freaky by the end there.)

[lifepulse]

I do respect the way Nick executes, hits and holds all of his compulsories, he’s excellent at that.

Do you remember Arnold’s side tricep? (Arms out straight to the side) How did he ever get away with that??? Crazy.

I think it was even crazier than that -- I seem to recall stories of judges calling out certain mandatories back in the day (like a side triceps shot), and someone (maybe Bill Pearl?) belting back, out loud, "No, I ain't hitting that pose!", refusing to hit it, and just hitting a completely different shot, lol.

[Big Beat]

Arnold held one arm out straight and hit a full bicep pose with the other hand. In 1980 you can hear the head judge telling him to hit the side tricep properly.

Not as bad as Bill Pearl, in the symmetry round he would not turm to the left. When everybody turned to the left he turned to the right so he was looking at the guy beside him straight in the face.


The things that legends can get away with