Samson vs Lunsford vs Hadi

[lifepulse]

The Hadi / Ramy things tends to be cultural . Nick and Andrew fans tend to be young and listen to other morons pretending to be experts on social media. It's pretty much a microcosm of today limited free thinking loud opinionated idiots leading loud opinionated idiots

I don't think the fandom these days is much different (in thinking) than 20 years ago, we just hear it more vocally because everybody has a platform now. But when I used to hang all day on BB.com and other forums in the early 2000s, you saw the same type of incredibly-limited thinking and fandom regarding competitors, it was just a smaller microcrosm.


I do think so much of it still comes down to "the enigma of how shows are judged". Just since the Arnold, I have watched extended conversations drag out about how "judging actually works", on the Fouad podcast -- on the Trigili/Banout/John Hansen podcast -- among many more from the peanut gallery. And those first two, they're not "rookies or amateurs", they are people who have been entrenched in the sport for 20-40 years.


Toney Freeman caused a lot of stir voicing this publicly about a decade ago -- that, even as a competitor and serious fan of the sport, he was fairly clueless as to how shows are ACTUALLY judged, that it was all done basically blind and in the dark.



For better or worse, none of the actual top dogs (Weinberger) come out and publicly state their exact mechanics and process for judging. (Not saying they "owe this to the public", but of course, without doing it -- as the officials who are making the calls -- the public is left to guess, debate, argue). Instead of Weinberger coming out, doing a video on YT and breaking down the actual mechanics of judging, it's left to Bob Chic to "relay the message" as the "official voice of BB", etc.



As long as that happens -- so long as the officials don't GET official, in public -- it will remain an "enigma", and left to debate among the peanut gallery. I have seen so many "official people", decry that Ramy wasn't given a fair shake at the Arnold -- Fouad, Milos, Dennis James, Cormier, Iain, etc. -- and if all of THOSE dudes think "something doesn't make sense", then of course Ramy's legion of fans are also going to make a capitol case out of it.

[Griff11]

Good point about it being louder as it in our faces now. I think Clarida was better than Ramy and is the one with a gripe. The elephant in the room that people are tip toeing around is Ramy fucked up. Last year at Pittsburgh by not showing up and cancelling at the last minute. He wasn't living up to his expected unwritten duties as Mr O then he pulls that shit. They gave him a huge gift allowing him to compete at the 2020 Olympia without qualifying. The world knows he didn't have COVID. He started diruretics too early because he was out of shape for his qualifier and ended up in the hospital. Then he pulls that shit

[lifepulse]

Good point about it being louder as it in our faces now. I think Clarida was better than Ramy and is the one with a gripe. The elephant in the room that people are tip toeing around is Ramy fucked up. Last year at Pittsburgh by not showing up and cancelling at the last minute. He wasn't living up to his expected unwritten duties as Mr O then he pulls that shit. They gave him a huge gift allowing him to compete at the 2020 Olympia without qualifying. The world knows he didn't have COVID. He started diruretics too early because he was out of shape for his qualifier and ended up in the hospital. Then he pulls that shit

Clarida was better than Ramy in a few very obvious ways:

1) his symmetry is better
2) his conditioning is better
3) he is "more complete", in the sense that he has better symmetry, no missing body parts (lower lats)
4) he doesn't look like he's filled with oil (or nearly as much), Ramy does


The "obvious" way in which Clarida is better -- he looks better, full stop. Doesn't need to be microanalyzed beyond that.


But the people who all say why Clarida didn't beat Ramy (and again, these are big names in the sport saying this) -- all say that he shouldn't have beat Ramy because he's "too small".


He's not proportionately smaller than Ramy -- inch for inch (if you adjust for height), his arms are proportionately bigger than Ramy's, his back is bigger, etc. (Maybe not legs.)


But apparently, "proportionate size" isn't enough to trump "absolute size" -- by whatever metric is used to judge.


That's why I still think the best singular answer for "how are shows judged?", is -- who best and most-consistently draws the eye? Aceto seems to support this same metric (talked about it on the last Palumbo live). On a stage, Ramy's size is so overwhelming, it tends to draw the eye more than Clarida does. (I'm assuming, as I wasn't there.)


But again -- the judges never come out and say it IS about "proportionate size" vs "absolute size".


Like you noted, the elephant in the room that everybody is tipetoeing about -- the problem is, shit is left to tiptoe about. Whether it was due to Ramy missing Pittsburgh, or whether it's because the judges feel he clearly is loaded with oil (I personally think that hurt him this time -- the overblown oiled up quads and delts) -- they can't come out and say it point-blank. Which then leads to all of the charges of "politics", etc., that we have heard for decades (and continue to hear).


So long as a lot of the decision-making for placings is left "off the table", charges like that will persist. Nature of the beast.

[Bestia]

Just reposting this snippet from the above because it is truth...

The "obvious" way in which Clarida is better -- he looks better, full stop. Doesn't need to be microanalyzed beyond that.

[Griff11]

Clarida was better than Ramy in a few very obvious ways:

1) his symmetry is better
2) his conditioning is better
3) he is "more complete", in the sense that he has better symmetry, no missing body parts (lower lats)
4) he doesn't look like he's filled with oil (or nearly as much), Ramy does


The "obvious" way in which Clarida is better -- he looks better, full stop. Doesn't need to be microanalyzed beyond that.


But the people who all say why Clarida didn't beat Ramy (and again, these are big names in the sport saying this) -- all say that he shouldn't have beat Ramy because he's "too small".


He's not proportionately smaller than Ramy -- inch for inch (if you adjust for height), his arms are proportionately bigger than Ramy's, his back is bigger, etc. (Maybe not legs.)


But apparently, "proportionate size" isn't enough to trump "absolute size" -- by whatever metric is used to judge.


That's why I still think the best singular answer for "how are shows judged?", is -- who best and most-consistently draws the eye? Aceto seems to support this same metric (talked about it on the last Palumbo live). On a stage, Ramy's size is so overwhelming, it tends to draw the eye more than Clarida does. (I'm assuming, as I wasn't there.)


But again -- the judges never come out and say it IS about "proportionate size" vs "absolute size".


Like you noted, the elephant in the room that everybody is tipetoeing about -- the problem is, shit is left to tiptoe about. Whether it was due to Ramy missing Pittsburgh, or whether it's because the judges feel he clearly is loaded with oil (I personally think that hurt him this time -- the overblown oiled up quads and delts) -- they can't come out and say it point-blank. Which then leads to all of the charges of "politics", etc., that we have heard for decades (and continue to hear).


So long as a lot of the decision-making for placings is left "off the table", charges like that will persist. Nature of the beast.

Great post, I believe the oil played a part. Ramy has always pushed the line with oil but the Olympia and the Arnold he went beyond

[lifepulse]

Great post, I believe the oil played a part. Ramy has always pushed the line with oil but the Olympia and the Arnold he went beyond

I really think the judges as punishing him more for that, than the Pittsburgh thing. The Pitt thing, yeah, it's an unspoken law/rule/tradition, but kinda' whatever; they seem to be slowly moving away from enforcing that type of crap these last few years, maybe that's in my head, I dunno.


But the oil stuff -- the overall "legitimacy" of the sport seems to be "improving" -- maybe with giving Hadi the win last year, maybe the overall quality of judging the last year or two, no obvious and complete bullshit calls (barring Akim at the Tampa last year, and even that's pretty debatable). And, how clearly the judges knocked Hadi for his oiled delts the last 1.5 years, how "public" a topic it became.


Plus, the top-guys these last 2 years have been BETTER top guys, NOT looking like science experiments as much --


I have the feeling that Ramy was always given kinda' crap placings, because he was always seen as an oil experiment -- and then was "the best we had" for a few years, while the new guard ramped up. I have the feeling the judges never really wanted Ramy getting into that spotlight, and sort of begrudgingly allowed it, for lack of better talent those two years -- but now, the talent has arrived, and they're trying to send hm as-clear a message as they can, without saying out loud "You're an oil experiment, bro -- peace". Whether he deserved his placings these last 2 shows or not, just the way they shoved him to the side, so rapidly, that seemed like a clearer message than anything.

[Beti ona]

For better or worse, none of the actual top dogs (Weinberger) come out and publicly state their exact mechanics and process for judging. (Not saying they "owe this to the public", but of course, without doing it -- as the officials who are making the calls -- the public is left to guess, debate, argue). Instead of Weinberger coming out, doing a video on YT and breaking down the actual mechanics of judging, it's left to Bob Chic to "relay the message" as the "official voice of BB", etc.

In Olympia TV Tamer the guindi gives some points of view of how the contests are evaluated. They also have Sandy Williamson as a guest to explain.

On the other hand you have gurus and former competitors who mix their subjective opinions with the "established" criteria, which is total chaos.

Steve or Manion came out to say a couple of things about Bonac last year, but those are limited statements.

[GeorgeUK]

Good point about it being louder as it in our faces now. I think Clarida was better than Ramy and is the one with a gripe. The elephant in the room that people are tip toeing around is Ramy fucked up. Last year at Pittsburgh by not showing up and cancelling at the last minute. He wasn't living up to his expected unwritten duties as Mr O then he pulls that shit. They gave him a huge gift allowing him to compete at the 2020 Olympia without qualifying. The world knows he didn't have COVID. He started diruretics too early because he was out of shape for his qualifier and ended up in the hospital. Then he pulls that shit

The free pass to the Olympia was a gift. Also gave him an unfair advantage.

The Pitsburg thing was a smack in the face. Supoosedly he didn't even say he wasn't coming. Just kinda didn't go...

Before this year's Olympia everyone was saying he was an obvious winner and best ever Ramy. I noticed that he posted videos where they fucked about with the aspect ratio. Bit of smke and mirrors. Nice guy he may be, but there is a chain of 'iffy' things going on with him.

[Beti ona]

[Beti ona]

Free passes are never a good idea, Ramy's first win will always have that dark mole on his resume. And the following year, many thought Hadi was better.

Then Ramy receives a gift because they are going to sell a lot of tickets, but he later does not return the favor to Manion and does not show up for the guest pose.

All these aspects make the sport dark and unreliable.

Derek would have to compete in some show and get the pass, even he didn't needs it, or his probable victory would be tainted as well.

[Giles]

Great post, I believe the oil played a part. Ramy has always pushed the line with oil but the Olympia and the Arnold he went beyond

Problem is mate, many of the fans that follow the sport (no matter how loosely or new to everything they are) don’t even know what a site located bodypart even looks like!

You and I can look at Ramy’s squared off shoulders and quad sweep & see it a MILE off but 95% cannot! They just think he looks great.

Look at Andrew Jacked’s calves at the Arnold when he turned around! That sent major alarm bells as soon as I saw them. But AGAIN, you’d be shocked at how many didn’t have a clue of what he’d done to them (I’m guessing prope a couple days before).

So, Ramy fans will never get why he is now being placed accordingly, add to the fact also that the competition (as it always does) caught up!

Arguing with Ramy fans is more often than not, completely futile, main reason is they are Ramy fans & not BODYBUILDING fans!

[GeorgeUK]

Problem is mate, many of the fans that follow the sport (no matter how loosely or new to everything they are) don’t even know what a site located bodypart even looks like!

You and I can look at Ramy’s squared off shoulders and quad sweep & see it a MILE off but 95% cannot! They just think he looks great.

Look at Andrew Jacked’s calves at the Arnold when he turned around! That sent major alarm bells as soon as I saw them. But AGAIN, you’d be shocked at how many didn’t have a clue of what he’d done to them (I’m guessing prope a couple days before).

So, Ramy fans will never get why he is now being placed accordingly, add to the fact also that the competition (as it always does) caught up!

Arguing with Ramy fans is more often than not, completely futile, main reason is they are Ramy fans & not BODYBUILDING fans!

I had an Andrew fan say his calves were just high....

[Giles]

I had an Andrew fan say his calves were just high....

Oh god.

[GeorgeUK]

People who dismiss the threat of Samson is all too common

- Remember Kuba making fun out of Samson on a short lived podcast when Samson said he was 300 off season? He thought Samson was lying about it
- Nathan wasn't enamoured by any Brit getting close to him. It was always a matter of time before Samson over rtook
- Andrew / Krizo getting all the 'cool kids' hype. Samson is a good 15+ lbs heavier than Andrew and 2" shorter (that's taking account that Samson could have been 5lbs lighter)
- All the cry babies since the Arnold (Nick T, Nick S+P etc)

People will sleep on Samson all the way to him winning the Olympia!

[Giles]

People who dismiss the threat of Samson is all too common

- Remember Kuba making fun out of Samson on a short lived podcast when Samson said he was 300 off season? He thought Samson was lying about it
- Nathan wasn't enamoured by any Brit getting close to him. It was always a matter of time before Samson over rtook
- Andrew / Krizo getting all the 'cool kids' hype. Samson is a good 15+ lbs heavier than Andrew and 2" shorter (that's taking account that Samson could have been 5lbs lighter)
- All the cry babies since the Arnold (Nick T, Nick S+P etc)

People will sleep on Samson all the way to him winning the Olympia!

I’ll get the tissues ready for all the crybabies when Samson DOES win it mate!

…and yes, I do remember when Kuba did that mate, some other pros were in agreement with him too, again, not cool and now they look like jealous plebs.

…All the while, there was Samson quietly getting his head down and working away, doing his thing. Respect.