100% Nasty

[leigh]

Ouch! Well, hopefully you encounter a few in the coming years that are the embodiment of all that was and could be good about America - hard work, honor, pride, integrity, freedom, and heart. These things go beyond gender, race, income, social standing. Not determined by social/political messaging from either side of the aisle. It is set of values and morals that didnt originate here but came in the legacy of beliefs of the people that sought refuge here from other great countries. It was then honed, and sharpened, and nurtured by common people living amongst each other in a new place, striving to achieve ambitious dreams.

Sorry, that is my patriotic soapbox for the day. Sorry you have had such bad experiences with Americans. Unfortunately many of the foundational ideals I listed above are no longer important or convenient for many Americans - but the still are and always will be for some.

I think I was being a little dramatic as a lot of my perception is based on those that I have encountered or spent time with. Which honestly makes up a very small demographic, especially whilst living in America.
Those that I have met who are living abroad have often left as they were somewhat outcasts and moved in the hope of being accepted by people who can’t full grasp their “uniqueness”, if you catch my drift.
I currently work along some great Americans here in Japan, but also have to put up with others that leave a lot to be desired.

[Bestia]

Leigh I totally understand where you are coming from man. If anyone was being dramatic it was me but I'm passionate about who we are as a people and how we should be representing ourselves when abroad.

I definitely appreciate the insights from all of you in the various places around the globe. Not just from a bodybuilding perspective, but on all things.

[Big Beat]

People are people, some are better than others but very few are all bad. I don't think you can paint any nation as being full of good or bad people.

I don't think the English bodybuilders are more genuine, being self-depreciating can come across that way but it doesn't mean there is a better character underneath , they have the same good and bad qualities as American
bodybuilders.

Compare how Iain finished working with Patrick Tuor to how James H did it. One did it with class and the other didn't tell the coach he was moving on. People are human for good or bad.

[lifepulse]

Ouch! Well, hopefully you encounter a few in the coming years that are the embodiment of all that was and could be good about America - hard work, honor, pride, integrity, freedom, and heart. These things go beyond gender, race, income, social standing. Not determined by social/political messaging from either side of the aisle. It is set of values and morals that didnt originate here but came in the legacy of beliefs of the people that sought refuge here from other great countries. It was then honed, and sharpened, and nurtured by common people living amongst each other in a new place, striving to achieve ambitious dreams.

Sorry, that is my patriotic soapbox for the day. Sorry you have had such bad experiences with Americans. Unfortunately many of the foundational ideals I listed above are no longer important or convenient for many Americans - but the still are and always will be for some.

Hate to be the negative guy, but I believe that shipped sailed a while ago -- that conglomeration of values ceased to exist as a driving force within America a while ago -- I couldn't name an exact date or timeframe, but I would say at least since the 90s, it has been steadily on the decline (and probably going back further, to the Hippie generation -- or even further yet, to FDR, when we officially began embracing a more socialist mindset, starting printing money instead of living off a gold standard, nearly elected a president as king, and began the alphabet-soup governmental agency plan that dominated since).


I am all for the values that you identify as American (I think you know you and I jive on that front). But the system has degraded -- not for all, of course, I'm talking averages and upcoming generations -- to the point now where I think "honor", "pride", "heart" are becoming more the exception than the rule (as they are slowly dying out with older generations).


And for the record, I never considered myself "patriotic". I don't "believe in a nation". I believe in codes of character -- pride, integrity, productivity, honesty, a select few others. America was essentially founded on the notion of the sovereignty of the individual (i.e., to "be someone important", you didn't need to be born with royal blood, or be a Catholic, or anything like that -- you just had to roll the dice, work as hard as you could, and hope the dice landed in your favor). And I believe that founding idea (the sovereignty of the individual rather than the sovereignty of the pack, or nation, or collective) is what allowed America to grow and advance as it did (other factors were involved, but I think this factor was fundamental and foundational).


But all great empires fall -- usually due to politicians and rulers making promises to the masses, in an attempt to gather power for themselves. Happened to Rome, and has been happening in this country for decades now as well. And I feel that any politician who tries to claim otherwise, is giving the lip-service soundbites that are needed for the news, nothing more.

[lifepulse]

I think I was being a little dramatic as a lot of my perception is based on those that I have encountered or spent time with. Which honestly makes up a very small demographic, especially whilst living in America.
Those that I have met who are living abroad have often left as they were somewhat outcasts and moved in the hope of being accepted by people who can’t full grasp their “uniqueness”, if you catch my drift.
I currently work along some great Americans here in Japan, but also have to put up with others that leave a lot to be desired.

I would love to live in Japan, even though I'm sure I wouldn't be accepted/would be looked down on for the most part. I lot of the values that Bestia sited, I feel are still so engrained in Japanese culture -- just simple conscientiousness, if nothing else -- that it would be a throwback to what this country used to be like, in part.

[lifepulse]

People are people, some are better than others but very few are all bad. I don't think you can paint any nation as being full of good or bad people.

I don't think the English bodybuilders are more genuine, being self-depreciating can come across that way but it doesn't mean there is a better character underneath , they have the same good and bad qualities as American
bodybuilders.

Compare how Iain finished working with Patrick Tuor to how James H did it. One did it with class and the other didn't tell the coach he was moving on. People are human for good or bad.

First part, absolutely true. People are the unit of judgment -- individual people -- their character, how they conduct themselves, what they do -- not groups of people. And I'm sure there are "good people" and "shitty people" combined in every single country. So when talking about this, maybe at best we're discussing a "general ethos and mindset that tends to predominate"? Even that is going to end as overgeneralizations, of course. But different groups/nations seem to have slightly different "flavors" that dominate over time.

[Beti ona]

The thread is derailing towards a sociological analysis.

Seen from outside, some Americans seem to want to return to an earlier point of things where there were certain values and morals, but the history of all societies, shows that this is impossible.

[Beti ona]

People are people, some are better than others but very few are all bad. I don't think you can paint any nation as being full of good or bad people.

I don't think the English bodybuilders are more genuine, being self-depreciating can come across that way but it doesn't mean there is a better character underneath , they have the same good and bad qualities as American
bodybuilders.

Compare how Iain finished working with Patrick Tuor to how James H did it. One did it with class and the other didn't tell the coach he was moving on. People are human for good or bad.

First of all, there are a lot more bodybuilders from the US than from any other country in the world, so you're going to have a lot of the best and the worst people.

But part of this problem with athletes is cultural, if the US is a country of drama, gossip and all that shit, then we are going to have a lot of that with bodybuilders and the associated press is going to reward certain personalities. That's why we have Rich Piana, Bostyn, Greg, Liver King, Kali Muscle... all these guys are partly a cultural fabrication.

In the UK, we have a group of 5-10 professional bodybuilders, and it's easier to get an idea of how they behave in general. Although in that country they have a shitty yellow press, at least in the industry, there are no gossips or eccentric personalities. It also influences that they can talk about and possess PEDs which makes their behavior look more authentic.

If you look at Latin American bodybuilders, they are much more open and honest because there are no legal problems with gear there.

So, there are many american athletes who are genuine and a joy to listen to, but many are also fake and appear to be doing a commercial.

[Beti ona]

I would love to live in Japan, even though I'm sure I wouldn't be accepted/would be looked down on for the most part. I lot of the values that Bestia sited, I feel are still so engrained in Japanese culture -- just simple conscientiousness, if nothing else -- that it would be a throwback to what this country used to be like, in part.

I have been listening some podcast about Shintoism, Samurai philosophy in Japan, in general, do not like recent ones, for example, in a company, the hierarchy is respected by age. Nor do they love foreigners.

I have never liked that excessive respect for the authorities since in a way a behavior of masters and slaves is generated.

[Beti ona]

And I believe that founding idea (the sovereignty of the individual rather than the sovereignty of the pack, or nation, or collective) is what allowed America to grow and advance as it did (other factors were involved, but I think this factor was fundamental and foundational).

I have read many articles and the parallel between the fall of Rome and the US is surprising, all empires fall for devaluing money and increase the power of the State.

I am an extreme individualist, I do not like the idea even to belong to something called a human genre, so the US seemed the least pernicious place to live on all possibilities, but that possibility went a long time ago.

Globalism demands more than anything a herd mentality.

[lifepulse]

I have been listening some podcast about Shintoism, Samurai philosophy in Japan, in general, do not like recent ones, for example, in a company, the hierarchy is respected by age. Nor do they love foreigners.

I have never liked that excessive respect for the authorities since in a way a behavior of masters and slaves is generated.

Heard and understood. That's also why the area/philosophy and orientation of Japan intrigues me the most. Point being, every society has "the thing that they worship" -- United States has sort of gotten to the point where they legitimately value money and narcissism above all else. As I see it, we sort of evolved to life in smaller clans/tribes, and with that, the smaller group (family, then more broadly, the village) is the unit where things like empathy, conscientiousness, and so forth, operate at their best. (Has also led to tribal warfare in the past -- but every other form of government and religion/value system has ALSO led to tribal warfare, so sort of a moot point).

Ancestor worship -- I mean, I'm an atheist, I don't "worship" anything in the "mystical" sense. But I can better understand worshipping your elders, than I can some imaginary figure in the sky with a beard -- having to carry on the family name and family honor, and so forth.

Eastern reverence -- be that Shintoism (Japan) or Confucianism (respect for elders within society) just makes far more sense to me than any other form of "respect". Yes, it can be taken too far and twisted, of course, anything can be.

[lifepulse]

I have read many articles and the parallel between the fall of Rome and the US is surprising, all empires fall for devaluing money and increase the power of the State.

I am an extreme individualist, I do not like the idea even to belong to something called a human genre, so the US seemed the least pernicious place to live on all possibilities, but that possibility went a long time ago.

Globalism demands more than anything a herd mentality.

The US was also anti-globalism, explicitly, until WWI happened -- an outright policy of non-intervention and not getting sucked into the problems and warfare of Europe and other areas. And while I understand why we broke that policy (to quell the threat of Germany at times), after we got involved, we never really got uninvolved again. Perhaps with modern military weaponry and economics, it's not realistic to get uninvolved in this era.

[Beti ona]

The US was also anti-globalism, explicitly, until WWI happened -- an outright policy of non-intervention and not getting sucked into the problems and warfare of Europe and other areas. And while I understand why we broke that policy (to quell the threat of Germany at times), after we got involved, we never really got uninvolved again. Perhaps with modern military weaponry and economics, it's not realistic to get uninvolved in this era.

The intervention in the conflicts of Europe had as its mission to stop the rise of Germany and the USSR.

In any case, American bankers first financed both sides of the conflict, but when Hitler became too powerful and ambitious, they had to stop him.

Ayn Rand probably understood better than most Americans the imprtance of US Constitution's philosophical/ethical notions of individual rights. But she herself was already warning that there were still collectivist remnants that were becoming more present throughout the last century.

The fault of this collectivist heritage is none other than Christianity present in some of the founding fathers, from which the West has not been able to free itself. Socialism and Christianity have a practically identical morality: compassion, altruism, rejection of the pursuit of wealth or personal pride.

The US went from being a republic to an empire surpassing the European powers. Military and defense institutions have grown too large and strong, and now seek to cause conflict to justify their existence.

With the rise of China, individualism will continue to lose value. The West is no longer better than communist dictatorships or Islamic theologies in this sense.

All these factors: NATO, Washington, geopolitics, "the elites", blocs, states that sympathize with this and that... describes the world as the toy, or chess table, of entities completely unconcerned with the actual human beings that live in it.

They can do it because the power of the individual has been steadily diminishing over the last century (give or take) and last time I thought that any ordinary person had a shred of influence on, say, what NATO or the World Bank, Federal Reserva or the WHO was going to do... was exactly never. This is how geopolitical strategists see the world, forcing us to make it a state and multi-state reality. Like the Greek gods they unconsciously equate themselves with.

These 2 articles are related analysis:.

https://internationalman.com/article...sm-inevitable/

https://internationalman.com/article...site-reaction/

[Beti ona]

Heard and understood. That's also why the area/philosophy and orientation of Japan intrigues me the most. Point being, every society has "the thing that they worship" -- United States has sort of gotten to the point where they legitimately value money and narcissism above all else. As I see it, we sort of evolved to life in smaller clans/tribes, and with that, the smaller group (family, then more broadly, the village) is the unit where things like empathy, conscientiousness, and so forth, operate at their best. (Has also led to tribal warfare in the past -- but every other form of government and religion/value system has ALSO led to tribal warfare, so sort of a moot point).

Ancestor worship -- I mean, I'm an atheist, I don't "worship" anything in the "mystical" sense. But I can better understand worshipping your elders, than I can some imaginary figure in the sky with a beard -- having to carry on the family name and family honor, and so forth.

Eastern reverence -- be that Shintoism (Japan) or Confucianism (respect for elders within society) just makes far more sense to me than any other form of "respect". Yes, it can be taken too far and twisted, of course, anything can be.

In a way, Japan is very similar to the US in terms of a superficial and consumer society, after the nuclear bombs and the end of the second world war, Japan had to acceptUSA influence. In terms of national pride, at least from the political classes, Japan and Germany are the most US-submissive countries in the world.

Japan, like all cultures, is experiencing some conflicts when the ancient heritage meets new customs or trends.

Respect for the elderly I think is something positive, but not the adoration or the strict obedience by pyramidal social structures. I suppose that we have the opposite problem, spoiled children who do not respect or are interested in the experience of the elderly.

[lifepulse]

Ayn Rand probably understood better than most Americans the imprtance of US Constitution's philosophical/ethical notions of individual rights. But she herself was already warning that there were still collectivist remnants that were becoming more present throughout the last century.

Funny that you bring this up -- and maybe why you and I see a lot of things in similar ways? I discovered Ayn Rand when I was 15 -- I had been reading a lot of psychology stuff in the 2 years prior, "trying to understand people". When I found Rand's works, it was the first thing I had ever read that fully made sense to me, and I began devouring her work. By 18/19, I was so put off by modern political debate that I stopped following politics entirely. This is also why I pursued philosophy in college -- wanting to test a lot of Rand's theories/views against the annals of historical philosophers -- but I focused more on epistemology/logic than I did on politics and ethics. (Politics and ethics began to bore me, because I realized most people's political and ethical theories are more self-delusion and rationalization, than they are based in logic -- and so it was a fruitless debate.)


I called myself an Objectivist for a long time (adherent of Rand's philosophy). I don't know that I would strictly say that these days, but I still feel that she was correct on most of the issues she wrote about.


Your analysis, Beti -- is spot-on accurate.