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Women Havoc yay or nay???

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Brad Crystal View Post
    dont run the havoc 16 weeks do it the last 8 or do 4 on 8 off 4 on. tough on the liver that long but so it var and winn. just havoc hasnt made me hold water major plus and im hard as concrete but like i said the back pumps are notttt fun.
    great call on the 4 on 8 off 4 on!! I have read that you can run Var through a show but I have also read to stop it 10-14 days out to make sure your body isn't holding onto any water. I'm thinking the Proviron/Nolva combo would help with the estrogenic fat. Then I would taper off the Nolva. Thanks for you input.

    Cheers

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    • #77
      definitely work but proviron is reallllllllllll androgenic, double check the doseage and the duration of that prob wouldnt want to be on it for very long maybe look into an arimotase inhibitor just a thought. you may get what you need out of havoc and nolvadex alone im telln u im giving this a thumbs up im only 3 weeks into my cycle at 10mg a day and a supppperr clean diet and my cardio sessions are rediculously high intensity, and the havoc is working. arent most of the bodybuilding women do more than just one oral???growth hormone will lean u out, if u can beat the hunger down , but you have to drop it before that 2 weeks before the show because of the water maybe someone else will have more info on that

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      • #78
        ok mike i give up. thanks for all the helpful info. sorry i doubted you.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by MR&MSB View Post
          great call on the 4 on 8 off 4 on!! I have read that you can run Var through a show but I have also read to stop it 10-14 days out to make sure your body isn't holding onto any water. I'm thinking the Proviron/Nolva combo would help with the estrogenic fat. Then I would taper off the Nolva. Thanks for you input.

          Cheers
          Don't take proviron, it is a potent androgen. There are better ways to deal with estrogen WITHOUT having to deal with a pronounced androgenic component.

          For the side-conscious women, Havoc would be a great drug to run up to the show. It is a good deal stronger than Var and it's androgenic component is riduculously low when dosed at 5-10 mg/day. Many men use up to 50 mg/day or more. It is the LEAST liver toxic OTC oral steroid and very mild in comparison to all illegal steroids. Only Var is as mild on the liver.

          As long as you are avoiding unacceptable sides, one could EASILY run Havoc for 8 weeks leading up to a show, as liver toxicity will not be a concern when dosed at only 5-10 mg/day. Like I said, many men have run it for 6 weeks or longer at much higher dosages and their liver function is much better than what would be experienced with orals like D-dol, SD or Anadrol.

          I have little doubt that 5 mg/day of Havoc could be ran almost forever without any serious liver stress. I wouldn't try it, but I would put money on the belief that 5 mg/day of Havoc could be run for 6 months straight while still maintaining OK (stressed, but OK) liver readings.....probably MUCH better than what just 6 weeks of Anadrol would do to someone.

          As mentioned earlier, 11 OXO is a great pre-contest supp for women, as it's non-androgenic. It will harden up the physique and facilitate fat loss.

          Nolva will help take fat off the "problem areas" most women encounter, and also has no androgenic component.

          An AI such as Aromasin, which will also eliminate any possibility of estrogen rebound (it's a suicide inhibitor), would work very well for lowering estrogen, but be prepared for side effects. Sister Steel would be a good person to ask concerning what sides to expect with AI use in a woman's body.

          However, it has no androgenic component and will drastically lower whole body estrogen, unlike Nolva which only blocks receptors, but lets circulating estroge float around, causing issues with fat loss. An AI like Aromasin would prevent whole body estrogen induced fat loss inhibition from taking place. An acceptabel dose of Nolva and Aromasin has the potential to substantially help a female with fat loss.

          Clen goes without saying. Again, there is no androgenic component, but it's great for whole body fat loss.

          GH will help peel away the fat, but some peolle will hold water from it. You won't know until you experiment on yourself. I would cut it 2 weeks out just in case. Besides, the large majority of it's fat loss effects should've already been accomplished.

          A diuretic like Lasilactone is excellent for pulling water out from under the skin right before the contest. Again, it has no androgenic component. This will make the skin appear much thinner, which will make you look leaner and increase definition dramatically. Lasilactone is also potassium sparring, so you don't have to worry about potassium consumption in order to stay safe.

          T3 is always an option for those struggling with fat loss and can kick up the fat loss process significantly. There is no androgenic component.


          Just this combination of drugs can bring a female into a show in great shape.

          Comment


          • #80
            And all of this for Bikini competition... yikes.

            AIs are particularly rough in terms of drying out the joints.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Sassy69 View Post
              And all of this for Bikini competition... yikes.

              AIs are particularly rough in terms of drying out the joints.
              Not for bikini Sassy69. I was asking about using Havoc for my national qualifier. I'm a fbb.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Mike Arnold View Post
                Don't take proviron, it is a potent androgen. There are better ways to deal with estrogen WITHOUT having to deal with a pronounced androgenic component.

                For the side-conscious women, Havoc would be a great drug to run up to the show. It is a good deal stronger than Var and it's androgenic component is riduculously low when dosed at 5-10 mg/day. Many men use up to 50 mg/day or more. It is the LEAST liver toxic OTC oral steroid and very mild in comparison to all illegal steroids. Only Var is as mild on the liver.

                As long as you are avoiding unacceptable sides, one could EASILY run Havoc for 8 weeks leading up to a show, as liver toxicity will not be a concern when dosed at only 5-10 mg/day. Like I said, many men have run it for 6 weeks or longer at much higher dosages and their liver function is much better than what would be experienced with orals like D-dol, SD or Anadrol.

                I have little doubt that 5 mg/day of Havoc could be ran almost forever without any serious liver stress. I wouldn't try it, but I would put money on the belief that 5 mg/day of Havoc could be run for 6 months straight while still maintaining OK (stressed, but OK) liver readings.....probably MUCH better than what just 6 weeks of Anadrol would do to someone.

                As mentioned earlier, 11 OXO is a great pre-contest supp for women, as it's non-androgenic. It will harden up the physique and facilitate fat loss.

                Nolva will help take fat off the "problem areas" most women encounter, and also has no androgenic component.

                An AI such as Aromasin, which will also eliminate any possibility of estrogen rebound (it's a suicide inhibitor), would work very well for lowering estrogen, but be prepared for side effects. Sister Steel would be a good person to ask concerning what sides to expect with AI use in a woman's body.

                However, it has no androgenic component and will drastically lower whole body estrogen, unlike Nolva which only blocks receptors, but lets circulating estroge float around, causing issues with fat loss. An AI like Aromasin would prevent whole body estrogen induced fat loss inhibition from taking place. An acceptabel dose of Nolva and Aromasin has the potential to substantially help a female with fat loss.

                Clen goes without saying. Again, there is no androgenic component, but it's great for whole body fat loss.

                GH will help peel away the fat, but some peolle will hold water from it. You won't know until you experiment on yourself. I would cut it 2 weeks out just in case. Besides, the large majority of it's fat loss effects should've already been accomplished.

                A diuretic like Lasilactone is excellent for pulling water out from under the skin right before the contest. Again, it has no androgenic component. This will make the skin appear much thinner, which will make you look leaner and increase definition dramatically. Lasilactone is also potassium sparring, so you don't have to worry about potassium consumption in order to stay safe.

                T3 is always an option for those struggling with fat loss and can kick up the fat loss process significantly. There is no androgenic component.


                Just this combination of drugs can bring a female into a show in great shape.
                Mike~

                You are "Da Bomb"!!! Thank you so much!! That really helps alot.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by MR&MSB View Post
                  Not for bikini Sassy69. I was asking about using Havoc for my national qualifier. I'm a fbb.

                  Dont' worry, there are bikini girls taking notes as we speak

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Sassy69 View Post
                    And all of this for Bikini competition... yikes.

                    AIs are particularly rough in terms of drying out the joints.

                    LOL...No, no, I wasn't saying to do all that for a bikini comp...no way! I was only answering a direct question, not implying this should be done for bikini. Perhaps I should've clarified that.

                    This was intended for a FBB'r getting ready for a show, but for a woman who doesn't want to put herself at a high rsik for androgenic effects and avoid virilization as much as possible. That combo of drugs can do a lot for a woman who wants to do a BB'ing comp, but doesn't have a lot of experience with AAS and wants to keep it that way. Of course, there will be sides, but they won't be androgenic (with the possible exception of Havoc, depending in personal response).

                    In my opinion, most women need far less AAS than what they might initially think (men too). There is no reason a woman cannot build a substantial amount of muscle and get in great condition without putting herself at a high risk for androgenic side effects and the drugs listed above will help with that goal.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      sassy, no actually im not , i put on here what i "thought" about doing in the future and if it worked out and i came in good i would if i was too much muscle i wouldnt. i wanted to try havoc which im doing and its working great. im not bulking up im not getting big im just losing the on top fat its working great. my legs are leaning out my stomach is leaning out. im getting some muscle in some need to be helped areas hams, glutes and shoulders, if and if i wanted to do any of the above i would i already KNOW what it does, again this was just an experience i wanted to try and if i didnt do my research i wouldnt try it the only reason i started this post was i wanted to see if another female had tried it and no one did so therefore i used myself. i did not have to let anyone know i was doing bikini all i wanted was some input, not to be bashed about it, but then again this is just all opinion incorporated with facts and experiences and so far im where i need to be. but truly thanks for your advice
                      Last edited by Brad Crystal; April 21, 2010, 04:38 PM.

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                      • #86
                        what is the prob with using a hormonal supplement, is it only for fbb, and figure? is there an unwritten rule somewhere saying that someone doing bikini or just looking to try to change their body comp. cant take anything hormonal? do u really think that some bikini girls havnt tried a cycle of var??? is bikini tested or is there a banned substance list i mean if it is let me know because i wont try , im definitely not trying to advocate any other bikini girls to try havoc,so let me in on this. we support an admire all competitive and non-competitive athletes that adhere to the banned sub. list for their organization. the point of the thread to inform,gain and provide info. never to promote if anything we will much rather not suggest hormonal sub for anyone, however we are in chemical enhancement thread on this forum. i do get what some people's point is on here that a bikini bod can be attained by good dieting and lots of cardio. however im just going to go out on a limb here, so its okay for a female bodybuilder to take a hormonal supplement and get where she needs to be but yet a bikini female cant?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Brad Crystal View Post
                          what is the prob with using a hormonal supplement, is it only for fbb, and figure? is there an unwritten rule somewhere saying that someone doing bikini or just looking to try to change their body comp. cant take anything hormonal? do u really think that some bikini girls havnt tried a cycle of var??? is bikini tested or is there a banned substance list i mean if it is let me know because i wont try , im definitely not trying to advocate any other bikini girls to try havoc,so let me in on this. we support an admire all competitive and non-competitive athletes that adhere to the banned sub. list for their organization. the point of the thread to inform,gain and provide info. never to promote if anything we will much rather not suggest hormonal sub for anyone, however we are in chemical enhancement thread on this forum. i do get what some people's point is on here that a bikini bod can be attained by good dieting and lots of cardio. however im just going to go out on a limb here, so its okay for a female bodybuilder to take a hormonal supplement and get where she needs to be but yet a bikini female cant?
                          I think there are a few issues to address here. First off, Havoc isn't the first hormone/AAS that you have used. You've used AAS prior to this for whatever reason. Your 23 years young, and your planning on competing in a division that does NOT require much muscle at all. We're talking beach body not big boulder shoulders, cuts in your quads, and huge lats. 2nd, comparing your usage to a 38 year old female bodybuilder who has actually made it to nationals 2x placing in top 4 once with no chemical help at all, the 2nd with very little chemical help, who has also been training for over 10 years and competing for 7 and THEN decideds to look into AAS as an alternative to get past 3rd place is NOT a good comparison. We're not even talking apples and oranges here.

                          I'm sure you have seen great results with the supps/AAS that you have used or are using. I don't agree with the choice to start using AAS at such a young age and with only 2 years of training experience but I would never tell you that your wrong. It's your body, only you can decided what is right or wrong for you. I can only speak for my own beliefs or perceptions. Put in your time, pay your dues, build a solid foundation with your physique AND then use the AAS or strong PH. No disrespect....I'm jus sayin.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Bikini is only going to be tested if it is part of a "tested" show. "Most" shows that are "tested", primarily w/in the NPC ,are via voice stress analysis or lie detector (these are not hard to "cheat") and any actual urine testing is going to cost more than most show promoters are willing to pay. Within 'tested" federations like OCB and NGA, the competitor pays for the testing & as noted above, it ain't cheap.

                            My issue w/ it all is that by lowering the barriers to entry for NPC competition (i.e bikini), because there's already a well-established industry of prep coaches, these people and clients who "want to compete" but on a ridiculously short timeframe, are more likely to use the "tools of the trade" to get their clients on stage. It is absolutely assinine that a bikini competitor needs a run of AAS to get on stage, but I'm also playing the cynic & devil's advocate here - given where I have seen the judging in Bikini go, it is going to lead to harder & more muscular competitors - not based on the announced judging criteria (i.e. something like "figure w/o muscles") but on what they are actually rewarding, I BET you're going to see competitors feel like they have to cycle to compete.

                            I'm just more & more disappointed w/ women looking for a short cut to get on stage because "getting on stage" is the important thing, and not actually spending the time to build a decent physique.

                            Anyway, one of my usual rants.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              thanks for all the helpful information and input ill get back with results like i said at the beginning providing any other female who wants to try havoc can see my experience, but MIKE thanks brad said you are on point and thank you very much for clarifying the epistane for us it was a tremendous help. i believe i have achieved what i needed from this thread thanks again.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                im not comparing myself to any 38 year old female if u want to try havoc try havoc im 23 thats your decision kudos on being chemically free. i hope you have a good run with it.

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