Layne Norton

[Rzilla]

It just so happens that I've spent the past couple hours combing through this thread to make the official Layne Norton FAQ So here's Layne's take on Keto diets:



I'm on page 37, and I'm taking a break for a while. Hopefully I can get this done by the end of the week, assuming there isn't a barrage of questions between now and then

if you would like some help el spiko...hit me with a pm.

[Klaus Urine]

I actually made one from a thread over at bb.com from the contest prep section that layne had. It took me a while but I got it all done. Layne if you would like I can email you the word document and you can do with it as you please.

I reckon post it in El Spiko's thread when it's done (or make your own new one and El Spiko can post in yours).

[Texan9]

I just turned 21 and am a 6'0 168lb bodybuilder looking to put on some muscle and diet down to do my first show around the first of 2008. Currently 31 inch waist, about 8% bf, on a 3 day on, 1 day off split. Cardio 4x per week, low intensity 35 minute sessions (post workout). Any advice would be great from Layne or anyone who has a suggestion about diet. Thanks(my avatar is my picture). Hargainer in my legs and calves ( I can't get those things to grow!!)

Daily Diet as of now:
Meal 1: 2 whole eggs, 6 egg whites, 1 cup oatmeal, 1 slice wheat bread
Meal 2: can of light tuna, 1 tbsp lfat mayo, 1 slice wheat bread
Meal 3: 8 oz buffalo, 1 sweet potatoe, 1 cup veggies
Meal 4: 7 oz chicken breast, 1/2 sweet potatoe
Pre Workout Shake: 1/2 banana, 30g protein, 5g creatin mono mixed in water
Post Workout Shake: 1/2 banana, 30g whey protein, 1 tbsp low fat pb, mixed in 1 cup skim milk
Meal 5: 7 oz chicken breast, bowl of salad, 3 egg whites
Before Bed: 1/2 cup lfat cottage chesse
Totals: Cals-2500 Fat-45g Carbs-160g Prtn-320

[str8flexed]

protein way too high, carbs & fat way too low. low intensity cardio pretty useless in the offseason; high intensity much better

[natedogg]

I happend to glance through my arnold schwarzeneggar's encyclopedia of bodybuilding book earlier and he pretty much says the same thing about ketosis. How even though it works, it's not a favorable way to lose fat. He states that ketone bodies are not nearly as efficient in fueling exercise as glycogen. In a prolonged state of ketosis, you tend to be sluggish, your mental processes suffer, and your body gradually becomes dehydrated. And worse yet your body begins to metabolize larger and larger amounts of amino acids for additional energy. He also says to use the ketostix to monitor whether your in it or not and that as soon as the stix turn purple, increase the carbs in your diet until the ketone reaction ceases. You will be eating just enough carbs to avoid a state of carb deprivation. All of this was quoted by none other than arnold himself. I thought this was interesting because I didn't know he had anything about ketosis in his book. I agree with arnold. Greatest bodybuilder ever, he knows his stuff.

[Rzilla]

protein way too high, carbs & fat way too low. low intensity cardio pretty useless in the offseason; high intensity much better

calories looked low to me as well.

[Texan9]

calories looked low to me as well.

So upping carbs to around 300 and calories to around 3000 should do it? Should these excess calories come from clean food sources or since it is the offseason should i eat whatever i want to meet those goals?

[hossjob]

Awesome stuff!!!!

I did keto for this contest run. For a couple reasons. One, continuance lowering of carbs left me irritable, cranky, light headed (hypoglycemic), constantly HUNGRY, craving carbs, etc.. Secondly, (main reason), I wanted to learn my body adn try something different not only for myself, but so I could help others as well.

Doing that, I have found that what Layne said about a protein/fat load then a light carb up is the WAY to go. Mon-Wed b4 a show I eat protein and fibrous veggie sonly (asparagus, broccoli, greens, Cucumbers, etc...) - soaked in apple cider vinegar. On Thursday, I fat loaded with egg yoks, fish oil, nat pb (trace carbs), & cashews or walnuts. Friday I continued the fat load and added 30 carbs to each meal from white potatos (meals 1-3) and yams (meals 4-6). Saturday morning I had 7 whole hard boiled eggs, then weighed in, looked at myself and decided if I needed carbs, which I did. I had another 30 grams from yam 3 hours before prejudge, then had some high GI carbs about 90-minutes before prejudge. It worked very well.

I also noticed that the night ofmy 1st fat load I get very full. If one wanted too, they may be able to add in some carbs THursday and hope the fats hold teh hold to friday and then use all slow gi foods to load and go with fats and low protein on show day.

[hossjob]

Sorry Layne, I know this is your thread, but I wanted to share my experience. hope you don't mind.

[Sporto]

I happend to glance through my arnold schwarzeneggar's encyclopedia of bodybuilding book earlier and he pretty much says the same thing about ketosis. How even though it works, it's not a favorable way to lose fat. He states that ketone bodies are not nearly as efficient in fueling exercise as glycogen. In a prolonged state of ketosis, you tend to be sluggish, your mental processes suffer, and your body gradually becomes dehydrated. And worse yet your body begins to metabolize larger and larger amounts of amino acids for additional energy. He also says to use the ketostix to monitor whether your in it or not and that as soon as the stix turn purple, increase the carbs in your diet until the ketone reaction ceases. You will be eating just enough carbs to avoid a state of carb deprivation. All of this was quoted by none other than arnold himself. I thought this was interesting because I didn't know he had anything about ketosis in his book. I agree with arnold. Greatest bodybuilder ever, he knows his stuff.

How you feel psychologically on a ketogenic diet has a lot more to do with how insulin sensitive/resistant you are. For most IR people, they report having MUCH better energy and focus in ketosis than they do on a carbohydrate based diet. It's because of the role insulin plays in their body. And a lot of people who are IR can still get great growth on low carbs, even though it isn't optimal, because their energy levels and mood aren't a rollercoaster all day.

Also, ketostix aren't a good way to determine ketosis at all. All they meaure are ketones being excreted in urine. But guess what, most people in ketosis that are lifting weights and doing cardio are burning through a hell of a lot of ketones. Very few ketones will be excreted in the urine. So according to the ketostix, they aren't in ketosis, when in actuality they most certainly are.

Arnold was a smart guy for his time, but the advancement in science isn't near what it is today back then. His book has a lot of good info, but is severely outdated in some aspects.

Sporto

[natedogg]

How you feel psychologically on a ketogenic diet has a lot more to do with how insulin sensitive/resistant you are. For most IR people, they report having MUCH better energy and focus in ketosis than they do on a carbohydrate based diet. It's because of the role insulin plays in their body. And a lot of people who are IR can still get great growth on low carbs, even though it isn't optimal, because their energy levels and mood aren't a rollercoaster all day.

Also, ketostix aren't a good way to determine ketosis at all. All they meaure are ketones being excreted in urine. But guess what, most people in ketosis that are lifting weights and doing cardio are burning through a hell of a lot of ketones. Very few ketones will be excreted in the urine. So according to the ketostix, they aren't in ketosis, when in actuality they most certainly are.

Arnold was a smart guy for his time, but the advancement in science isn't near what it is today back then. His book has a lot of good info, but is severely outdated in some aspects.

Sporto

According to a new study from researchers at the University of Connecticut, exercisers who switched from a carb- and protein-balanced nutrition plan to a "ketogenic diet," characterized by very low carbs (about 8 percent of total calories) and high amounts of protein and fat, experienced a 7 percent to 9 percent reduction in peak muscular power over a period of six weeks. The ketogenic plan, the researchers found, also negatively impacted the athletes' cardiovascular fitness, causing a 6 percent decrease in VO2 peak over the study period.
These results shouldn't come as a surprise given that carbohydrates are the most important energy source for exercising muscles and are the only food that can be used for anaerobic energy needed for weight training. Carbohydrates are also the most efficient fuel for aerobic exercise in that they are able to produce energy at a rate three times faster than that of fat and require less oxygen to do so.
Optimal exercise performance, numerous studies have shown, is best fueled by maintaining adequate stores of carbohydrates (glycogen) in muscles and liver, which is best achieved through carbohydrate- and protein-balanced eating.
This is from personal experience too at my college. I was part of a study that did something similar. After the results, I know that ketogenic diets are not for me, i'm a carb guy for sure.
P.S. Yeah arnold's book is from 98, alot of info has expanded since then. But in about 10 years from now, the science that's out now is going to be "outdated" also. I'm an old school guy, and arnold's theory's are pretty much parallel with layne's. Especially the water, he's against cutting water, diuretics, and other chemicals to get shredded. So I actually think that his info pretty much the same as today, it's just more rationalized in more depth now a days.

[str8flexed]

I think some people are better with keto diets than others. I think the mental aspect cannot be discounted. Some people just mentally cannot handle carbs. That's fine, keto is probably better for them, but in my opinion, if you don't absolutely have to do keto, you are better off not doing it as it really complicated trying to properly fill someone out for a show and has not been shown to be superior to an isocaloric high protein non-ketogenic diet in peer review studies.

-Layne

[NowYourDeadSon]

layne.. i know it can get tedious in here sometimes..
and unfortunatly i don't know how to embed...


but eveyone here should like that.. jason biggs at his best

[Sporto]

According to a new study from researchers at the University of Connecticut, exercisers who switched from a carb- and protein-balanced nutrition plan to a "ketogenic diet," characterized by very low carbs (about 8 percent of total calories) and high amounts of protein and fat, experienced a 7 percent to 9 percent reduction in peak muscular power over a period of six weeks. The ketogenic plan, the researchers found, also negatively impacted the athletes' cardiovascular fitness, causing a 6 percent decrease in VO2 peak over the study period.
These results shouldn't come as a surprise given that carbohydrates are the most important energy source for exercising muscles and are the only food that can be used for anaerobic energy needed for weight training. Carbohydrates are also the most efficient fuel for aerobic exercise in that they are able to produce energy at a rate three times faster than that of fat and require less oxygen to do so.
Optimal exercise performance, numerous studies have shown, is best fueled by maintaining adequate stores of carbohydrates (glycogen) in muscles and liver, which is best achieved through carbohydrate- and protein-balanced eating.
This is from personal experience too at my college. I was part of a study that did something similar. After the results, I know that ketogenic diets are not for me, i'm a carb guy for sure.
P.S. Yeah arnold's book is from 98, alot of info has expanded since then. But in about 10 years from now, the science that's out now is going to be "outdated" also. I'm an old school guy, and arnold's theory's are pretty much parallel with layne's. Especially the water, he's against cutting water, diuretics, and other chemicals to get shredded. So I actually think that his info pretty much the same as today, it's just more rationalized in more depth now a days.

*sigh*

Can you please re-read what I said? I'm not saying that a ketogenic diet is the most optimal way to lose fat for everyone...I'm saying that it depends on how insulin sensitive/resistant you are is a key factor in determining which dieting approach might be better. Does that study you describe take into account how insulin sensitive/resistant all the subjects were, and then draw their conclusions taking that into consideration? Because there are an awful lot of people on keto diets (think **** *******'s clients) that report significant strength gains while dieting.

Am I disagreeing with you? No. I'm a carb guy myself, and I've been working with Layne for the last 7 months. So, I obviously agree with the points on not cutting water, carbs being the primary muscle sparing macro, etc. All I was saying was that a carbohydrate based approach to dieting isn't for everyone, and that one of the key factors in determining that is one's insulin sensitivity/resistance.

And yes, research is constantly being updated, as are the views of respected people in the field on certain issues as soon as said research comes to light. You'll find that many people who claim one thing now, used to claim the opposite years ago because the research that was available. Again, I said it's a great book and that SOME aspects are severely outdated.

Geez, I hate it when people have no reading comprehension and I have to re-type everything I already wrote.

*sigh*

Sporto

[str8flexed]

ooooh tommy's gettin' pissed off, might have to up his carbs before he kills someone