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Layne Norton

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  • Originally posted by Blade_MyR View Post
    A couple of sets of higher reps where you get into the glycolytic pathway - "feel the burn" - can actually deplete the muscle quite a bit. According to studies (from recollection, don't have the references at hand), 2 sets in the 15-25 rep range can deplete a muscle by about 20-30mmol/kg of total glycogen.
    was that in trained or untrained athletes? because that makes a big difference.

    and that's 15-25 reps with fatiguing weights... I recommend weights that only get a pump and do not approach fatigue
    BioLayne LLC
    PhD, Nutritional Sciences
    Scivation Athlete
    MD Columnist
    Website

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    • Originally posted by Blade_MyR View Post
      Well, I haven't really had any issues with that, which couldn't simply be rectified with a light pump'n pose session Saturday morning prior to or immediately after the first meal.

      My apologies, but I still don't see a good reason to deplete a muscle that has already been loaded 1-2 days prior, especially if we want to ensure a proper drying out process by taking carbs low Friday (and medium-low Thursday). It appears to be a 2 steps forward - 1 step back process, it apparently works great for you and your competitors though... I see Skip does his fill-and-spill thing on Wednesday (the Skiploading thread), but no mention of doing further training beyond that point.

      I'm open to anything that can improve the loading and drying out process, so I'll experiment with this, though. You're saying a low-volume, light full-body circuit on Thursday, but not Friday for a Saturday show? And at this point, the carbs have already been tapered from a high point earlier in the week as far as I can tell from your earlier posts/articles?
      it seems like we are just going round and round about it. These are my theories... are they right? I would like to think so or I wouldn't do them. I'd like to think my stuff has a lot more scientific basis than most the junk out there but you are more than welcome to disagree with me, that's your prerogative... but there is no point in going round and round in circles over the same topic.

      here is something I wrote a while back.... not directly on the topic but around it.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------

      What’s up people? I hope everyone is well. It’s getting colder outside but the contest season is really heating up as the BIG shows are just around the corner, so obviously contest prep topics are something constantly on my mind. This past weekend I had a client call me and tell me that he felt he was holding water. Now typically I think that 99% of people who say they are ‘holding water’ just aren’t in shape, but I knew he was in shape, but I figured he was probably paranoid. But he was very convinced that he was in deed not nearly as tight as he had been. So what do we do? What can we do if we get to the day before or dare I say the day of the show and for whatever reason we are holding water? Most people would say ‘cut water’ or ‘take a diuretic. I would have to disagree with that.
      What you have to remember is that even if you are holding water under the skin, cutting water is not the best way to get rid of it. If you are holding water under the skin & you cut it then you are just going to increase aldosterone even more and reabsorb more water from the nephrons into the interstitial space. When you cut water or take a diuretic you will not be able to control where you take it from… it is going to come out of muscle and out of the subcutaneous tissue; the problem is it's going to come out in the same ratio contained by the two areas. If we think about Le Chatelier's principle we can start to make sense of it. For those of you who haven’t had a lot of chemistry, Le Chatelier's principle can be used to predict the effect of a change in conditions on a chemical equilibrium. It can be summarized as: “If a chemical system at equilibrium experiences achange in concentration, temperature, volume, or total pressure; the equilibrium will shift in order to partially counter-act the imposed change.” For example, let’s say we have 2 reactions: A ----> B-----> C. If you remove C, then you will accelerate the conversion of B to C, and also accelerate the conversion of A to B. PULLING the reaction forward. Now if you reduce the amount of A, then the conversion of A to be will slow and therefore, the movement of B to C will also slow in order to maintain equilibrium. By the same token, let's look at water distribution assuming A is water in the muscle, B is water in the interstitial space, and C is water in the kidneys. If you take a diuretic to increase water excretion, (in our example, removal of C) you will therefore accelerate the removal of B (interstitial) but you will also accelerate the removal of A at the same rate to maintain equilibrium. The ratio of water in each compartment stays the same, all you have managed to do is reduce water in all departments and flatten yourself out. So what happens if we cut water? If you cut water then you are reducing the input of A into the system. This will reduce the movement of A into B, and will subsequently reduce the movement of B into C. In this case the kidney totally restricts it’s excretion of water due to the reduced input in order to maintain equilibrium. Again the distribution of water in the compartments is unchanged, there is just less water everywhere and so you are just flatter everywhere.
      So what do you do? You’ve only got days or worst case, hours until you have be onstage and you have to tighten up. What can you do? Your best bet is to MOVE the water by changing the equilibrium. That is taking the water from the interstitial space and moving it into the muscle tissue. The best way to do that is to start doing a good hard pump up workout for anywhere to 20-40 minutes. There is no need to go heavy, just a circuit with lighter weights to get a really good pump going. This is going to do a few things

      1) Increase blood flow and blood pressure helping to push water from the interstitial area into the vascular system.

      2) Upregulate skeletal muscle GLUT-4 receptors, causing your muscle to pull more glucose from the interstitial space into the muscle and a lot of water along with it

      3) It will increase perspiration, which isn't always a good thing but if you are in fact holding water it may help get rid of excess water in subcutaneous tissue.

      So what happened to our mystery man who was holding water? Well he didn’t cut water, he didn’t take a diuretic, he just did a nice circuit training routine the night before the show and then again the morning of the show. That night he called me to tell me he tightened up and won his show. Don’t thank me though… thank Henry Louis Le Chatelier. Who would have known a dead French geek from the late 1800s would be helping people win bodybuilding shows in the 21st century?
      BioLayne LLC
      PhD, Nutritional Sciences
      Scivation Athlete
      MD Columnist
      Website

      Comment


      • Layne-


        I've checked the internet and read hundreds of posts. I also posted a thread in the 'injury' section about this and got some info, but nothing conclusive.

        I have been having headaches located in the back portion of my head where the base of the head and top of the neck connect. I have pain in that region when I do heavy benching in particular.


        Has this ever happened to you before ? Any thoughts ?

        Comment


        • nope and I'm not a doc so I really have no idea
          BioLayne LLC
          PhD, Nutritional Sciences
          Scivation Athlete
          MD Columnist
          Website

          Comment


          • Yes, I've read that post before and I completely agree with it, being in shape, water, sodium, carbs - I'm pretty sure we do most things the same with ourselves and our competitors from what I've heard.

            It is only a minor disagreement with the high-rep training in the middle of - or after - the carbload, and I was trying to understand your reasoning for it.

            Thanks again

            Comment


            • Layne, I read your thread on bodybuilding.com about how you believed overtraining was very hard to accomplish and how you have hammered your legs with 40 sets twice a week because that is what it takes for them to grow etc. Do you believe a 3 on, 1 off split is ok for a high volume trainer? I like to train with atleast 20 sets per body part. Or would you reccomend hitting everything 1 time per weekw ith such volume? I read your reply to someone that protein synthesis is fully compelte after 48 hours and the muscle is recovered in 48-72 hours so I am trying to narrow this down.

              My split would be:

              Day 1.) Back A.M. Biceps P.M.
              Day 2.) Chest A.M. Shoulders/Tri's P.M.
              Day 3.) Quads/Calves A.M. Hams P.M.
              Off
              Repeat....

              Comment


              • And I'd like to add, after reading rereading that article, that I DO agree with some circuit/tension/posing-type stuff the night before or morning of contest day to draw the carbs you just reintroduced along with water into the muscle to tighten up.

                It was the depletion on Thursday when carbs are low(er) I didn't understand. So glycogen will "leak" out of the muscle, and accelerating that process by actually training seem very counterintuitive to me.

                Training before a Wed+early Thu or Tue+Wed carb-up - definitely.

                But let's leave it at that, just a professional interest in what your theories are on final week prep.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ChromeHearts View Post
                  Layne-


                  I've checked the internet and read hundreds of posts. I also posted a thread in the 'injury' section about this and got some info, but nothing conclusive.

                  I have been having headaches located in the back portion of my head where the base of the head and top of the neck connect. I have pain in that region when I do heavy benching in particular.


                  Has this ever happened to you before ? Any thoughts ?
                  Do you flex your neck during benching? Possible suboccipital neuritis. Is the pain reproduced during things like curls or rows?
                  Shelby 01/2000 - 4/18/10. Rest in peace baby, there's no more suffering.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Blade_MyR View Post
                    And I'd like to add, after reading rereading that article, that I DO agree with some circuit/tension/posing-type stuff the night before or morning of contest day to draw the carbs you just reintroduced along with water into the muscle to tighten up.

                    It was the depletion on Thursday when carbs are low(er) I didn't understand. So glycogen will "leak" out of the muscle, and accelerating that process by actually training seem very counterintuitive to me.

                    Training before a Wed+early Thu or Tue+Wed carb-up - definitely.

                    But let's leave it at that, just a professional interest in what your theories are on final week prep.
                    its' not a depletion workout though... it's just to get a pump
                    BioLayne LLC
                    PhD, Nutritional Sciences
                    Scivation Athlete
                    MD Columnist
                    Website

                    Comment


                    • Layne, I'm going to post this on Eric's thread too, but I have a question. Why don't you and Eric a natural bodybuilding radio show together? It would have two of the top nutritionists in the sport interviewing guys like Kurt Weidner, Brian Whitacre, the Miller couple, Jim Cordova, Jon Harris, Dave Goodin, Ron Coleman (the natural one, lol), and not to mention all of the guys from this board like Ben, Semper, Hoss, Jim, etc..

                      This show would be so cool man with all the diet and training theories being thrown around. I just think this would be extremely good for natural bodybuilding.......

                      Comment


                      • would love to do many of these things, but i only have so many hours in the day, however i am working on a podcast with the guys at abcbodybuilding.com and some others that if we get it going will be super kick ass
                        BioLayne LLC
                        PhD, Nutritional Sciences
                        Scivation Athlete
                        MD Columnist
                        Website

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by vargasty View Post
                          Layne, I read your thread on bodybuilding.com about how you believed overtraining was very hard to accomplish and how you have hammered your legs with 40 sets twice a week because that is what it takes for them to grow etc. Do you believe a 3 on, 1 off split is ok for a high volume trainer? I like to train with atleast 20 sets per body part. Or would you reccomend hitting everything 1 time per weekw ith such volume? I read your reply to someone that protein synthesis is fully compelte after 48 hours and the muscle is recovered in 48-72 hours so I am trying to narrow this down.

                          My split would be:

                          Day 1.) Back A.M. Biceps P.M.
                          Day 2.) Chest A.M. Shoulders/Tri's P.M.
                          Day 3.) Quads/Calves A.M. Hams P.M.
                          Off
                          Repeat....
                          bump??

                          Comment


                          • I think that would be fine
                            BioLayne LLC
                            PhD, Nutritional Sciences
                            Scivation Athlete
                            MD Columnist
                            Website

                            Comment


                            • got cleared to back squat by my doc and my first day was yesterday. I decided to start off light and not go over 315.

                              my first set was 10 reps and I felt good
                              2nd set was 15 reps and I still felt good

                              I was tempted to go heavy but I said no I'll just go for reps. My previous personal best was 20 reps with 315.

                              So I ****in' did 21 reps with 315! I had not free squatted in 6 MONTHS! I broke a big PR my first day back and not only that but it was relatively EASY. I felt like I had more in me but I said there is no reason to push it and hurt myself... I'll leave some in the hole and keep progressing each time.

                              I'm back on track and the freight train is coming...
                              BioLayne LLC
                              PhD, Nutritional Sciences
                              Scivation Athlete
                              MD Columnist
                              Website

                              Comment


                              • Nice going Layne! Now that is the way to work around an injury! Most people take time off and eat crap....lose muscle, get fat, and lazy. Not the case here!

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